TPP Season 2, Episode 12 with Jon Lindstrom

TPP Episode 26 with Joel Nedecky

Mark: [00:00:00] Coming up on the Thriller Pitch podcast.

Joel: it is a story about redemption. When you’ve made mistakes for a long time, when you’ve lived a certain way for a long time, is it even possible to come back from that?

Mark: What makes a great thriller tick, and what does it take to write one? Welcome to the Thriller Pitch Podcast, where bestselling award-winning and emerging thriller authors share the craft research and real world experiences that power today’s most gripping stories. I’m your host, mark p Jay Nadal.

Whether you’re writing thrillers or can’t get enough of reading them, this show takes you inside the minds of the authors, behind the twist. Characters and moments that keep us turning the page.

This week I’m joined by Joel Nki, author of the Broken Detective. We talk about crime fiction that resists easy redemption, writing protagonists who don’t get clean arcs, and why some stories are more interested in understanding [00:01:00] people than in saving them.

Joel shares how he approached writing addiction consequence and moral uncertainty, how place shapes character, and why he believes not every story needs to offer comfort at the end. If you’re interested in crime fiction, that asks hard questions and lets the answers stay unresolved this is a conversation worth hearing. Joel, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here today.

Joel: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Mark: I am very excited to talk about your book, the Broken Detective. Let’s get started with the book pitch.

Joel: Okay, so the broken Detective, is about a private investigator named Jake Jolson and the book is for fans of people who love, mysteries, thrillers, noir, crime novels, people who love to read the books of Dennis Lehan, George Pelicano, people like that. And the story is about Jake and how he is going to prison.

[00:02:00] He knows he’s going. It’s just a matter of for how long. And thanks to a suspended sentence, he has two weeks to earn as much money as possible so he can support his mom, who is, not very well while he’s, while he’s inside. And during those two weeks, he gets hired to find a missing woman. So he takes the case.

The story is set in Winnipeg, Manitoba, my hometown. And I, I think it’s a story that fans of thrillers will enjoy.

Mark: Thank you. And why set it in Manitoba?

Joel: Well, I, I guess the main reason, well, there’s a couple, but the main one is that’s, that’s where I’ve always lived. Well for the, for the majority of my life anyway. And I also think, you know, I, I read books from crime authors, people who read, uh. Who, who reads stuff like, James Lee Burke or Michael Connolly, you know, and, and the settings in those places are so important.

And I’ve read other Canadian authors who have [00:03:00] set their books in other Canadian cities, but there’s not very many, crime thriller books set in Winnipeg. So I, I thought that, you know, gimme a chance to write about my city and, and then as a, as a third reason, I guess I, I always find it fascinating just where people are from and how.

You know, a city has so many good things, so many positives. But then at the same time, there’s these like problems, issues that people who live there seem to always come back to. And Winnipeg has a few, few very particular ones that people, always talk about when they talk about Winni.

Mark: How do you balance in your story telling place with moving the story forward at the same time? Because you did spend chunks of space to describe it and it was well done, but I’m just curious how you chose that. Okay. Here’s an exposition where I want to talk about Winnipeg to bring it to life versus moving the plot forward.

Joel: Yeah, I think, [00:04:00] I think one of the things I tried to do it is just not be heavy handed with it. Like try to layer in the details about Winnipeg, either like you said, during short passages of exposition or even even from characters in dialogue. There’s one conversation I can remember right now where Jake is talking to sort of like his mentor figure, I guess a character named Katz and Jake is telling him how he how he hates Winnipeg, how there’s so many things about this city he doesn’t like, from the crime to the cold, to the poverty, and just all these, these things he doesn’t like. And then in that conversation they, they start talking about, you know, some of the good things about the people who, who live here and some of the things the city has going for it.

And I think through dialogue is maybe a, a way to get setting across to the reader without, like I say, being too blatant about it.

Mark: How much of Winnipeg ended up in the book as far as like you mentioned, like some of the problems and things that happen, there’s obviously a lot of problems that happen in the book as well. [00:05:00] How many things correlate between what you know of Winnipeg versus what was been put in the book?

Joel: You know what I, I, what I tried to do with that, um, I tried to make it like, I don’t know if it’s necessarily an accurate reflection of Winnipeg, I think. I think parts of it are, but I also think, you know, a person’s perspective on a place depends on who they are, where they live, what they do for a living, what their family’s like, where they’re from, maybe originally.

So I, I think it’s, I think it’s the character the protagonist Jake’s, I think it’s his version of the city. But at the same time, there are some details that have played prominently in the news here in the last probably 10 years for sure is just how, you know, Winnipeg in Canada anyway, had the dubious distinction of being the murder capital of Canada.

So. I believe we’ve lost that title. I, I think another city a little bit to our east has that title now, but, I, for a long time [00:06:00] we, we had the most murders per capita in the country. So a detail like that is something that’s, you know, taken right from, from real life. Uh, As far as the communities and such, most of the streets, most of the neighborhoods are, are true to, to reality. With a couple businesses and places like that. I just made up just to, sort of fit the story.

Mark: Yeah. Okay, so if I, if I look at the streets and stuff, I could take your book down to Winnipeg and find my way around.

Joel: To a certain point. You probably, you probably could, but a couple places, you know, I, I changed details and that, but yeah, there’s, there’s definitely, many, many real, real streets and such. I,

Mark: So what did the idea for the broken detective come from?

Joel: You know what, that’s a good question. I was looking at your like your your introduction for the guests before I came on to just see what the questions are gonna be like and, and whatnot. But, so I, I thought that one was coming. Um, I think for me, I, I usually start with character and I’m interested in this, so I read a lot [00:07:00] about, you know, how people create stories and whether they start with a plot and then they get to the character later or however it works.

And I was just reading an interview, or No, I was listening to a podcast with a guy I think his name’s Brad Inglesby, who has done two really good shows. The first one was Mayor of East Town, and the second one just came out this year, a couple months ago, called Task, starring Mark Ruffalo. And both are sort of crime thriller stories.

Awesome, awesome, awesome writing. And he was talking about how he starts with character and I, I think that’s exactly, you know, what I do is I, I have an idea for, for a, for a person who is probably down and out in some way. And I didn’t know exactly what that was gonna be for Jake, in particular, but I started with that idea and then I, I wanted to, to take him through the process of of changing, you know, whether it’s for the better, whether it’s for the worse, I guess people will have to read the book, but, maybe it’s a little bit of both, you know, maybe, like all of us, we. Uh, [00:08:00] we have things in our life that are hard and we start somewhere, and where we start brings us to you, you know, a certain way of living. And for Jake, he struggles with, with alcoholism. His mom is an alcoholic as well. I think I just started with that, idea and then, and then it came from there.

Mark: So do you consider yourself a plotter or a pants when it comes to having put the story down? You had the character in mind. Did you start the story with just that character and then you went to see how, what happened from there?

Joel: I would say I am a little bit of both. I heard the expression planter one time, which is a terrible word, but I, I write out one sentence for each of my chapters, and I, there’s a certain structure I stick to as well, like a three act structure. And then it changes as I go. So I, I need to have a little bit for each chapter. I, I, I find it sometimes it’s just an image or like a phrase or a, a sentence or, or something that I, I come up with. I see. And then I start with that. But no, I, I don’t just sit [00:09:00] down and write. I, I have a plan, but the plan does change.

Mark: Okay. How much did this plan change as you were writing it?

Joel: A lot from the very beginning of writing this thing to where it is now. I’d say quite a bit. It took me a while to figure out what I, what Jake’s backstory was gonna be like. I had the mystery in place. I, I. I hope it’s a compelling mystery that, you know, for people who like reading mysteries, there’s, there’s clues, and Jake is a detective, so he follows the clues, but his backstory, I, I went, you know, in so many different directions I had him.

At first he was gonna be a former athlete, like a, somebody who may be retired from playing pro hockey or something like that, and had nothing to do with his life. At one point, he was going to be. Oh, what was the other idea I had? I forget. But there’s a couple other ones before settling on you know, his current backstory, which is that he grew up like in and outta foster care. He, [00:10:00] he had a mom. His, his dad disappeared when he was younger, but he lived with his mom until he got to be a certain age when he fell into the care of, of the province.

Mark: At its core, what would you say? What kind of story this is?

Joel: I think it’s a crime story. I think it’s a mystery. I also think it is a story about redemption. At its core, I think the question is asked, you know, when you, you’ve made mistakes for a long time, when you’ve lived a certain way for a long time, is it even possible to come back from that? And that’s the question that, that I, I hope gets answered at least somewhat in the, in the book.

I also think at its core, it’s a family story. I think we all have. Families, you know, I mean, most people do. And even if you, you don’t know your biological [00:11:00] family, you’ve probably, you know, been in a family of, of sorts or adopted or on a team that it’s like a family or a workplace that’s like a family.

So I think, I think it’s also a story about family and just why we need people around us who have our back.

Mark: Do. Do you think about these themes as you’re writing the book as themes that you wanted to aDD, or this just came as part of the back figuring out the backstory.

Joel: You know, I, I think it just comes as, as I write. I honestly don’t know if, I mean, I, I guess some writers can start with a theme that they want to communicate, like an idea of sorts. F for me. I, I have questions I think be before I write, and then I think as I write, I sort of figure out what the theme is.

But I, I don’t write with the intention of sharing a specific message or anything like that. I, I try to tell a good story first. I try to make it [00:12:00] exciting, interesting, fun for readers, but also thoughtful. I, I hope there’s parts of the book that make. People stop and think about themselves, you know?

So, no, I don’t write with theme in mind a topic. I definitely have topics and questions, but not a message.

Mark: and this is your debut thriller. Is this the first full length novel you’ve written?

Joel: It is, yeah. It’s my first book. So it is, it is my debut, it, I actually wrote it a number of years ago. So the, the book came out just in October, but. I wrote most of it probably 2021 and 22 I would say. And then it was nominated for best unpublished manuscript for an award, from Crime Writers of Canada and, crime writers as a group.

They include like noir and thriller and mysteries all in that same category. And then after that, that was 2023 when I was nominated for that award, it took me, it took me a while to find a publisher, [00:13:00] so a few months to find someone, you know, willing to publish it, to work with me. And then it just came out this year with a small publisher, a small press.

It’s, it, it takes a while just for everything to line up. So yes, it is my first book.

Mark: Oh, congratulations. That is a big accomplishment. I think I had wrote like four or five books before I had one that, that I felt was actually deserving of going, even considering publication. So to do it on your first one is very impressive.

Joel: Well, thank you. Yeah, no, I appreciate it.

Mark: You’re a you, you mentioned you’re a teacher. What subject do you teach? Do you feel like that has helped you with the skill at writing?

Joel: I think it has, like I teach high school English, so I’m always like, my, my day consists of a lot of reading and, and writing and just talking about books and movies and TV shows those are areas that I, I love. So I think in talking about something and just working with it all the time, I think you do get better at it.

Has it helped my writing? Like on a prose level? I, [00:14:00] I don’t think so, but I, I think I’m around a lot of people and talk to people from all walks of life. That’s, that’s for sure. Teaching a very diverse high school, so I think that can help but broaden your horizons a little bit and just open you up to I don’t know. Different ways of looking at things.

Mark: Nice. I feel like you’re live, you’re living the dream that I wanted to live at one time before I

Joel: Oh yeah,

Mark: decisions. yeah,

I wanted to teach, I wanted to teach English and then and then I eventually published books, but

Joel: yeah. Absolutely.

Mark: Oh, oh, that’s awesome.

Joel: And you, you run a business now as well, right? In addition to the podcast, you have

Mark: Yeah. Fitness. Yeah. Yeah.

I got into fitness instead of, I got into teaching coaching fitness instead of. F instead of English. So

Joel: it’s similar in a way. I mean, I, one of my one of my kids, the father of one of my son’s buddies, they’re just, they’re young. They’re nine years old now. But, he, he is a personal trainer and he owns a, a business too, and he really is, it’s funny ’cause we talk about this [00:15:00] stuff, but he, he really is a teacher.

That’s what he is. He’s always showing people what to do. He’s always trying to build rapport with people. He’s, he’s got an expertise in the area. Like, so there are a lot of, I think, similarities in the fitness world. I think people who are really passionate about it, I think there are similarities to teaching in a school.

Mark: yeah. When readers finish this book, what are you hoping they’re gonna be thinking or feeling as they put it down?

Joel: I hope that, I hope they’re surprised. Okay. I hope they’re surprised ’cause I did work hard to to make the ending strong. But on a deeper level, I guess maybe maybe it puts them in a in a spot where they’re forced to think about people who they, write off, you know, people who they, uh, who we all, I shouldn’t say they, but we, we all, sort of judge, I guess, right?

Like, you, you meet somebody and it’s within a few [00:16:00] seconds you’re sort of making all these interpretations and that’s fine. But I, I also think it’s, it’s, it’s a good thing for a person just to go back and, and think about the people you meet and what their lives are like and where they come from and what their, what their motivations are, and, and then, you know, look at yourself as well.

I, I think it’s a book that can keep you entertained, but also at the end of it, I hope it, it has made you, made you think a little bit as well.

Mark: I just finished it yesterday and it did, it did have that effect on me. I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed the story, really enjoyed the ending. And there were some deep messages we’ll talk a little bit about too during the story that certainly had me thinking at the end, and it reminds me of that you never know what someone else has been through when you see them you know, you can see someone at a grocery store who’s really upset, but you don’t know why they’re upset or what their day was like. And I think this story it helps reflect that in a way because of what [00:17:00] he’s going through and, and everything and, and the perspective of all the different characters in their lives and even to the very end, which we can’t talk about right now, but what we’ll get into a little bit later.

Joel: Sure. Yeah, no, thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. I, I, I think what you said is absolutely true. It’s, it’s, everyone has a story and you know, when you get to know someone’s story, I think you, you maybe, you maybe don’t like something they’ve done. And I, I also think that’s okay as well. You know, you don’t have to like what somebody’s done to maybe empathize a little bit or understand them a little more. You know, I think that’s that’s maybe where fiction and, and stories in general, whether it’s a thriller or a different novel that I assign to some of my students in high school. Maybe the that’s where stories can help a little bit with that empathy piece.

Mark: Yeah. What research went into this for you?

Joel: I had to learn a lot about like extremist groups and just the [00:18:00] thinking. So I’ve, I’ve read a couple different books, along the way Under the Banner of Heaven is one I can recall by John Krakauer, just to try to get into that mindset and understand a little bit more about fundamentalism. By no means do I think I’ve covered it all or anything like that, but I, I think during the writing, it put me in the head space to try to understand the characters. I also did quite a bit of research and, and spoke to people about, like group homes and foster care and just what some of those, experience of experiences have been for people and, and how, I mean, there’s, there’s no one experience for any of this stuff.

People have their own, you know, situations, but I think there are some common threads, that people do experience when they go through something like being removed from their home, taken from their parents. And when they grow up in a foster care system, I think it’s, Uh, like I say, I think the experiences are different, but I do think there are some, some similarities as well.

[00:19:00] So yeah, I did did research on those two areas most. And then just tons of reading, like I love crime thrillers, I love reading. In general, to be honest, and just reading some of my favorite authors work is I think one of the best ways to figure out how you want your own stories to be.

Mark: When you’re creating these characters, even the side characters, do you have like a chart or something of their names and like the traumas they’ve been through and how they’ve dealt with those traumas? Because there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of overlap in traumas kind of a theme throughout the book. The different types of trauma, whether it was sexual or through with the church or or with alcoholism. Like there’s a lot of trauma and everyone has dealt with it differently.

Joel: No, that’s a good question. I think, um, I do keep track of the characters. I, I don’t put everything in, in like, it’s a Word document where I have [00:20:00] a picture of what I think the person looks like, on the one side, which is some details, their name some of the stuff they’ve been through, like you say. I, I also think that during the process of writing it, I’m, I’m a very routine person so I write every day, even if it’s for a very short amount of time. So I think when I’m in the process of writing, I live with the characters enough that I can usually remember, you know, who they are. What I found to be a major challenge is after not having worked with the book in a while in between, like my award nomination in 23, and then revisiting it this year to do the final edits with the editor from Runamok.

That was a, a new experience, having to reread it and, and just remember and learn the characters again. It did feel like a little bit of. I don’t know if a challenge, but it, it definitely took me some time to get back into it and, and just to keep everything straight, just from one scene to the next, from one character to the next. [00:21:00] Trying not to repeat the same, the same story or the same, background, although some of them are definitely similar.

Mark: Why first person point of view instead of third, instead of telling us. ’cause in, I mean, I guess I don’t read a whole lot of detective stories, but I’ve read some, and a lot of times you get a chapter from the villain’s point of view or you get a chapter from someone else’s point of view, but that’s usually a third person told story. You went with first person. Just curious how that decision came and why.

Joel: I, I think because it’s my first book and for whatever reason, I was actually talking to somebody about this the other day too they messaged me and just kind of asked about it. But for me, it’s easier. And honestly, that’s the, that’s the real answer, is I just find first person easier. Since I’ve written a book in third person, like with multiple points of view and such, and I, I think, I think it’s harder, I think it really is harder [00:22:00] to, to, for me to write in third person.

The person who I was talking to said the opposite and said they just can’t write in first person. They feel like they’re being pretentious or something, like always talking about them, but they said third person is just more natural. And for me, I think first person is even though. I, I, I really enjoy reading third person.

So in the future I’ll probably do both, but that’s how it came about. Honestly, it was just my, my first, I guess, book. So that’s where I went with it. I didn’t even think about it to be honest. I, I thought, you know, I, I, so many detective novels, so many crime novels, thrillers, I’m trying to think of a good thriller that’s in first person. I, it’d probably take me a while, but I, I think a lot of crime novels are in first person, especially the first book of a, of an author.

Mark: I was thinking, I think that Michael Connolly in that has done a lot of third right

Joel: Yeah. I think Connolly probably has with his Harry Bosch. He’s actually done both. I can remember he switched like Mider, then he went back [00:23:00] to. The original, which maybe was third person, but yeah, he’s, he’s definitely used third.

Mark: yeah. Okay.

Joel: Okay. Yeah.

Mark: When you were crafting Jake’s character as a broken detective, how did you not make him unlikeable? Balancing the line between, ’cause there were moments in the book where I borderline didn’t like him, but then he kinda redeemed himself almost immediately after. But it was like, it was a struggle at times. It was real, which is what I liked about it. ’cause I was, you know, those struggles were just real coming across. But at the same time, there’s a risk of this behavior is borderline unlikable the way he’s acting.

Joel: Yeah. I, I think what I tried to do with that, I, I tried to, with the character, with his mom, I, I tried to make the scenes between Jake and his mom show that he, he is a kind, loving person, and [00:24:00] even though he does some things that are unlikeable, you know, whether it’s his drinking or just some of the, the violence that’s in the book and, and things like that, I hope that what shines through more is the fact that this is a loyal character who if you’re on his team, if, if he cares about you, he’s, he’s gonna go through anything for you. And at one part of the book he says something like I, if you, if you hurt people I care about, then I will hurt you basically. And I, I think there’s always been kind of this idea, you know, I’m thinking about for some reason John Wick just popped in my head right now, the mo the John Wick movies of how, you know, at the beginning of that first movie, anyway, you can, I think it’s his dog that gets killed at the beginning, right? And he goes on this [00:25:00] like rampage, but. I mean, I, I like him, I like the character, even though some of the things he’s doing, of course they’re, it’s terrible.

Now that’s a, an action movie where you can see the character and you get more of that, like the actor’s performance, of course. But I, I think characters can do unlikeable things if, if the, the baseline of the character is, is still good. And I, I hope Jake reads like that. I, I think he does. That he is a good person.

The way he grew up living in survival mode for a good chunk of every day of his life, I think hardened him and I, I think he had to do things that, he felt were necessary for survival. And sometimes when people cope with, with, with life, they don’t do it in the right way. So I think there’s some of that in there too. But I hope at the end of the day he still is somebody that you see as, as if not likable then, then maybe. Understandable,

Mark: Yeah. Relatable for [00:26:00] sure.

Joel: perhaps. Yeah, in some ways.

Mark: Yeah. I have a question from Karen Osborne, who was the last guest on the show. She wants to know how your book cover came together.

Joel: Interesting. The book cover came together because I wanted to have and I was allowed input too. I, I have to say, I had quite a bit of input. I wanted to have my f my first idea was a character w was like, not the silhouette, but just somebody sitting at a bar and you see their back straight on with the bottles behind.

And then the yellow, I wanted the yellow on black. I thought that would be good. The, the person who did the cover at trouble lights, sort of came up with some photos and it, it has the same idea with the character or the image. Just slightly turned just a little bit. So you can see how you, you get, he’s not directly, it’s not straight on, but it’s just from the [00:27:00] side.

But that’s how the, the cover came to be. And I, I think it fits the genre, the crime, thriller, noir, mystery type genre. So I was very mindful to try to make it as. Not unique as possible, to be honest, but I wondered when you look at it, you know, okay, that’s, that’s a, a book in, in this particular genre.

Mark: Yeah. Cool. Thank you. What advice would you give someone who just published their first or second book?

Joel: The advice I would give somebody who just published who that’s, I would say that the the best thing you can do or my, I guess advice, my advice would be not the best thing, but my advice would be to, make sure your perspective is playing a long game so that if you come into this thing thinking you’re gonna sell, 10,000 copies or [00:28:00] make a million bucks or something you, you should probably, you should probably rethink that and try to build an audience slowly with every novel, with every book. And if I had to give a second piece of advice, it would be to connect with other writers. I think one of the best things for me about this whole writing gig is just like meeting people from all over the place, usually on social media, who after a few years, you know, we edit each other’s work. We communicate by email or we help each other out with blurbs. And you, you do have a little community where it doesn’t feel like you’re doing it on your own. And I, I think those would be the two pieces of advice. Just make sure we have like the right mindset. Like go into this thinking, you’re gonna write 10, 15 books and build slowly. And then the second one is just connect with people. Try to help them. And if, if you help somebody, they will definitely pay it back. At some point,

Mark: Yeah, thank you. Your long game. Have [00:29:00] you started another book and is it gonna be a series from the broken detective or are you going somewhere else?

Joel: I, I’ve written a couple since, since I wrote the Broken Detective, so the second one in the series is done, but it’s, it’s just a first draft, so there’s a lot of work that would still need to go into it and that, that I hope to have out. It’s probably gonna be a little bit of a weight, but, at, at some point in the next year to two years, I think the sequel will be out.

I’ve also written another standalone that’s the one that’s in third person that, I think is, is probably a, a thriller. It is more of a, it, it happens in a, a shorter period of time and. I’ve really tried with the different perspectives to push the speed of it and to try to just get that momentum with regard to, to, the characters trying to s solve the problem.

I guess the, the the conflict in that story. So, yeah, I’ve written a couple books since then. Um, [00:30:00] and I’m always working on something where they’re gonna come out or when is, is the question? It’s, it’s a very I think, interesting time in publishing because there are so many, so many books out there, there, there are so many authors, there’s so much content in social media and, and streaming services.

So it really is I think a challenge and it’s, it’s probably harder than ever to find readers. Right? So that’s, that’s really what I’m trying right now, is just to find people, to get the book in the hands of, of podcasters like yourselves to try to get on to talk about it and just to, you know, kind of build that, that audience one person at a time.

Mark: Yeah, I will happily be talking about it. It was a great book. So

Joel: Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Mark: where can readers find your.

Joel: You can go to, if you go to my website, which is j the letter j neti.com, there’s links to the different places you can buy it. I mean, there’s, there’s always Amazon, which [00:31:00] is, which is, which is probably the most convenient place to get it. In Canada, you can also go to like a McNally Robinson, like a local bookstore.

Like that, we’ll have it. Or some of the indie bookshops will be able to order it for you. In the states you can get it from Barnes and Noble as well. It’ll be available there as well.

Mark: All right. That’s great. I’ll link to that in the show notes. Thank

Joel: Okay, thank you.

Mark: Thank you for your time. This is the end of the main show. I really appreciate you taking the time. If you don’t mind sticking around, we’re gonna do a quick spoiler, full section, ’cause I wanna ask a couple of questions about the end of the book so listeners know. Stop here. This is where you don’t wanna listen. If you wanna read the book first and then have a couple additional questions, and then we’ll get into the after show.

Joel: Yeah, absolutely. That sounds good. Thank you.

Mark: right. Thank you. So spoiling the end again, listeners, if you do not want to know how this book ends, do not, do not listen to this part of, of the of the show. The ending was quite sad when you crafted it. [00:32:00] The was, it told this way the first time with. I was almost expecting the judge to almost give like a leniency or something to, to come back and say like, oh, you did all these things i’m so impressed maybe we’ll give you a few months and, and your, you can be with your mom or probation or something, but you didn’t, you didn’t go that route. You went, you went with like, okay, here’s what I mean. Here’s what you did.

Joel: I, I had a couple people comment on that. Like I, I had an agent actually contact me talking about the book. Like this is before I signed with Run Amuck even. And they wanted me to change it to to a story about how. The character Corey Francis, who is not really in the book at all, but that’s the person who Jake assaulted, you know, who he has to write this letter of apology to, just to get the suspended sentence and the shorter sentence.

The, the agent thought that it would be a better story [00:33:00] if, if that guy had had come back to sort of try to get revenge against Jake and if, if something happened with that at the end, or like, if I would’ve earlier in the book, had Corey Francis be a character, then he could have come back at the end and maybe it would end on some kind of a showdown between these two.

Mark: yeah.

Joel: And the other thing I could have done is, like you said, let the character off and, and not send them to prison. The reason I didn’t do that is because book two opens. I thought it would be interesting to open book two, like 13 months down the line where he gets outta prison and now he’s got all this money because he, he was forced to take the money at the end of the broken detective as well.

And I just think that’s interesting. You got this guy who, who, is trying to get sober. Maybe he is, maybe he isn’t after prison, and then he’s now got all this money. He’s got no job, he’s got very little family. And I, I just thought that was interesting to see what he would do with the money. So as far as it being sad, I, I think, I think I think that’s [00:34:00] true to life.

I think a lot of things are sad, but I also, what I’ve noticed as I’ve gotten older is that sometimes I feel sad, sometimes I feel sad, but I also kind of feel good at the same time. And it’s a weird balance where I think, Jake, I think it is sad, man, he’s going to jail. I mean, that’s one of the worst places a person can go. But at the same time, if it gets him to, to stop drinking and to try a different way of living, then I, I think there’s some, some joy in that as well.

Mark: Yeah. Well also at the end, ’cause I’ll, I’ll add more sadness to the,

Joel: Okay.

Mark: Question is cats. Cats losing it and, and crumbling in the end. And that killed me too. ’cause seeing it, I know he lost his, he lost his wife and he’s at the funeral and I get it. So you set it up. To make total sense and be within the book, but at the same time, I was like, damn, really? Why cats? Why did you do it?

Joel: I, I think why, the, why I did it is. [00:35:00] I always like things when they get reversed, like in a story, like what I try to teach students too, and they have these ideas and a lot of them, like they’re smart people, but they, they come in with like a almost a cliche idea or an idea we’ve sort of seen, and I’m like, okay, like flip this around.

So the idea for me that I thought was interesting is like, okay, you got this character Jake, who’s a drunk, who, he is not been sober for very long. And then you have his mentor, who is many, many, many years sober, who is smart, who has found a good way of living for like 20 years or whatever it is.

And now you have the newly sober person mentoring the older, like that’s interesting to me. So I really try to take the idea and just like flip it for the ending. And also, I like the idea that, that you never get there in life. Like we’re never gonna, like fitness for example too, right? To get back to that. Like you could be in the best shape [00:36:00] of your life one day. And I know many actors talk about getting in shape for a role, and then I think it was Jake Gyllenhal who said something like, you know, he did that boxing movie and it’s like two weeks later he hadn’t worked out or whatever. And it’s al already, his body is so different in two weeks, and I think you have to keep doing the thing. And that’s just like being sober is the same. If you want to keep living sober, you gotta sort of put in the work, I guess you could say. And I, I think that’s interesting,

Mark: I, I also like that it humanized cats in a sense

Joel: right?

Mark: That it’s like even though he had gone 20 years, that doesn’t mean all our demons are gone and everything is fine and happily ever after. That was a, That was good too. I was still sad, but it was good.

Joel: No, I agree. I, I think you’re, I think you’re, it’s like all of us, like it’s, it’s. Life is awesome. It’s very exciting and it’s, it’s interesting and some days are boring and everything else, but it’s hard and there are sad things in the world, and I think that maybe the book taps into that a little bit.

Mark: Thanks for listening to the Thriller Pitch Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure you’re following the [00:37:00] show, and if you can leave a rating and review, it helps the podcast reach other writers and readers.

In the next episode, I’m talking to JL Hancock, author of the Hawk Enigma. We talk about grounding high stakes thrillers in real world detail, balancing technology with character and how much research actually makes it onto the page.

If you’d like to go a little deeper, there’s a short after show available right now on Patreon. It’s where authors answer rapid fire questions they don’t get asked anywhere else. Questions like thrillers that inspire them to write their weirdest Google searches guilty pleasures, and then note they’d leave on your nightstand. It’s free to listen to and you don’t need anything to access it. You’ll find the link in the show notes

TPP Episode 24 with Karen E. Osborne

Mark: [00:00:00] Coming up on the Thriller Pitch podcast.

Karen: And so I whip at my notebook and I write down the way she looked and the way she stood and the way she spoke, because I know that’s what my character looked like or sounded like.

Mark: What makes a great thriller tick, and what does it take to write one? Welcome to the Thriller Pitch Podcast, where bestselling award-winning and emerging thriller authors share the craft research and real world experiences that power today’s most gripping stories. I’m your host, Mark P.J. Nadon.

Whether you’re writing thrillers or can’t get enough of reading them, this show takes you inside the minds of the authors, behind the twist, characters and moments that keep us turning the page.

This week I’m joined by Karen E. Osborne, author of Justice for Emerson. We talk about writing dual timelines, how she builds characters by observing real people in their everyday [00:01:00] life, and how some of her personal history, including her husband’s Vietnam experiences helped shape Emerson’s story.

If you’re interested in writing characters who feel fully alive and managing multiple timelines without losing clarity, this is a conversation worth hearings.

Karen, hello. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here today.

Karen: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I’m delighted to be here.

Mark: I am pumped to talk about your book, and I have it here for those who are watching the video, justice for Emerson. I love this book and I, I cannot wait to, to dig into it. So

Karen: Thank

Mark: let’s start with the pitch.

Karen: Yeah. So could the murder of a 77-year-old Vietnam vet beloved volunteer be somehow tied to a murder in 1968? [00:02:00] Hmm. So this is a dual timeline murder mystery. Present day. And Aria comes home, comes to work. She runs a not-for-profit. She’s 50 years old, she’s five foot two. She has a real issue about her height.

She comes to work and she finds a beloved volunteer, 77-year-old, cow Emerson murdered in the basement. The murderer sees her and she sees the murderer, and we are off and running. The book one 2025 Best Mystery of the Year by best thrillers.com and, and that’s my pitch.

Mark: Thank you. Congratulations on that award. I saw that. That’s awesome.

Karen: Thank you.

Mark: And well deserved. ’cause this was just so well done in so many ways. So let’s get [00:03:00] into that start. Let’s start with just where the idea came from. How did you form this?

Karen: So all of my books, this is my fifth book, and all of my stories start with characters. So characters talk to me, and then I figure out how their story is gonna evolve. I’m not a plotter. I write, you know, I think and solve as I go. When, when I was about three quarters of the way through Justice for Emerson, my husband, who’s helping me with the research because of all the Vietnam stuff, so he’s a Vietnam vet.

So he was helping me with the, with the, you know, all of the things that were going on in Vietnam. That’s the dual timeline part. And he’s three quarters of the way reading it. And I, and I, ’cause that’s where I was in the writing and he says, Karen, this is so good. I can’t figure out who the murderer is. I said, I know I can’t either.

I keep waiting to, I want the murderer to reveal [00:04:00] himself. Like he said, you don’t know who did it. I said, I don’t. So I start with characters and, and I wanted, you know, the experience, the whole Vietnam experience. And I read the women from Ha by Hannah, Kristin, you know, she wrote about the women in Vietnam.

And so I wanted to do something that honored the black Vietnam vets who, who faced a lot of extra, a lot of extra. And, and then I also, aria just, you know, said this was really her story. So I had to do a, to a dual timeline.

Mark: So when you wrote this, I guess you wrote it then in order, ’cause you didn’t outline it, you would’ve written Emerson’s story and then just switched the next chapter to Aria’s story back and forth. Wow.

Karen: cause I don’t outline, you know, it’s, it’s, I had a, a book that I’m writing [00:05:00] now. I actually had a character yell at me and say, no, I am not a middle class on my way to college person, because this never would’ve happened if that was the case. I am poor Karen, I am poor. And I thought, oh, she’s right.

I had to go back and go back and change it. So, yes, I just, I follow, I mean, I’m, I’m always thinking of the plot, you know, as I’m writing, I’m thinking about what could, what’s gonna happen next? What could happen next? What if this happened next? But I don’t outline all the way. Do you outline, are you an outliner?

Mark: I am in between. So I have a good idea where the story’s going. I have the book blurb. I have an idea of the book cover. ’cause I like to do that as like an inspiration. But I don’t do chapter by chapter ’cause the stories never follow. I’ve tried it and the stories never follow that path.

Karen: I love that you think of your, your book cover first. That is so cool.[00:06:00]

Mark: It’s fun. It brings it all to life for me.

Karen: Yeah,

Mark: So when you were building these characters, like you said, they talk to you. Are you writing, taking notes as they talk to you so you can keep track of them and their story?

Karen: I do with when I was writing my first book. I actually would have to like, pull over in my car and blow on the side of the road and like, oh my goodness. Or I’m sitting on an airplane and I see somebody and I realize that that person looks just like, you know, one of the characters. And so I whip out my notebook and I, I always, I always, always, always have paper with me no matter where I am.

And so I whip at my notebook and I, and I write down the way she looked and the way she stood and the way she spoke, because I know that’s what my character, you know, looked like or sounded like. So yes, always, you know, pieces come to me. Pieces come to [00:07:00] me and I try to keep track. You know, I keep notes about what I said somebody looked like, but they’re, they’re so alive that I rarely get mixed up.

I really forget that this one had a certain color eyes, and now she, you know, I can’t remember what color her eyes were because. You know, they’re, they’re living, breathing people.

Mark: So do you find you go through life in the world through a writer’s lens, where you’re constantly looking at people in situations and asking those what if questions all the time. Just through?

Karen: that terrible? Yes.

Mark: Yeah.

Karen: I mean, every time somebody tells me, tells me anything, they’re telling me something that happened to them in their life. And I’m thinking, oh, you know, like I could use that. Maybe not in the book I’m writing now, but I don’t wanna forget that. And I also sometimes I struggle with humor, you know? ‘Cause you need a little, especially when you’re writing really intense suspense, paint turning stuff. You need a little, you [00:08:00] need those light moments. So when somebody tells me something that really strikes me as amusing, and I think that would work, that would work. And but sometimes I don’t know where it’ll work.

And so I just have to keep it in my notebook until sometime comes around. So yes, beware. Don’t talk to me because I will

Mark: Watch

Karen: watch out.

Mark: When you crafted this story justice for Emerson, do you ask yourself if you’re writing a darker, deeper story, or is that just the way you like to tell your stories?

Karen: No thank you for asking that. That’s such a, that’s, that’s so important to me. So all of my stories have behind them social issues that matter to me. I don’t want the book to be about that in the sense of, you know what, I want you to learn about this. But I, I weave them in. I weave in moments when [00:09:00] somebody will realize what it means to be unhoused.

What it means to be a 13-year-old girl that doesn’t have access to you know, sanitation, you know, um, products, what it means to a, so this one has addiction in it. It has, you know, parents who are not together. It has stepfather. Is that a real father, poverty. I, I just, I try to lift every book I have.

I try to lift social issues that I think are important and weave them through, you know, a suspenseful page turning.

Mark: How do you decide what weaving is versus talking too much about it because, I think you did an excellent job of weaving it in because I noticed them all. I’m reading to notice as well, [00:10:00] but I noticed it all and it was all just very well done. It was just enough to give me an insight, but not overdone. So to pull me from the story.

Karen: Yeah, it’s a balancing act and I have to correct myself sometimes when I’ve gone too far. I, you know, I, I, I realize that when I’m reading, when I’m rereading, you know, I love to rewrite. Matter of fact, you can’t be a successful lawyer, successful author if you’re not like up for rewriting. You know, those beta readers will slam you and tell you what you need to fix.

So I really look, so when I’m doing my rewrites, when. I, I’m constantly asking myself, did I play that too heavy? Is that okay? Is is it the right balance? But the, the characters help with that because Aria, who is 50 years old, she’s the mother of a college age student, a freshman in college, [00:11:00] and she’s a widow at 50, and she cares deeply about the unhoused.

She cares deeply about people who are hungry and marginalized. So as long as I keep her true to her character, while her story is going, it’s easier to get the right balance because, because it’s her life, you know? Yeah.

Mark: I appreciated her also that little romance love story with Jax in the middle of the book because she’s older. But it was so nice that she’s feeling those feelings and finding that love for herself again. And she’s obviously doubtful and been through a lot and am I too old and stuff. But yeah, it was, it was great.

Karen: You know, I have, I had a, somebody bought my book and a link on LinkedIn. He’s a contact on LinkedIn, and so, he sends me a note on LinkedIn. He says, [00:12:00] Karen, I’m just bordering up a bordering a plane. I’m on my way to Atlanta, but I’m just telling you, if you kill Jax, I’m never speaking to you again.

And then the next day he says, okay, I’m leaving Atlanta. And Jax is cool, he’s good. Okay, but oh, what you did to Wally, poor Wally. And he’s giving me this commentary all the way through. So, yeah, I like Jacks a lot. I, I wanted her to, I hoped that she would find her way to him. You know, I mean, he’s, he’s just a good, good guy and she had all these things that he was to this and to that and to this and to that. And you know, it’s not okay, but he’s just a really nice guy.

Mark: Yeah. And speaking of that support for her, at the beginning of your book, you have a dedication to your husband, and I have always found it in all [00:13:00] these conversations I’ve had with authors, that there’s a big support network behind successful authors. And I’m curious how he supported you through this journey. It’s not necessarily just for this book, but the journey of becoming a writer as well.

Karen: You know, so we met when I was 13 and he was 14 years old, and we met at a party. I don’t actually remember the party or meeting him, but he says that he met me at a party and at 14 years old, he decided he was gonna marry me. He told his 15-year-old brother who said, what whatcha talking about?

He said, no, that’s her, that’s her, that’s the one. So he, he has been on my side. We’ve been married for 57 years and he has been on my side for the whole time. And he’s believed in me when I didn’t believe in me, you know, when I would like, is this any good or Will I ever, ever be able to get published or is, is [00:14:00] there just, you know, another book in me.

I don’t think there’s another book in me. He was always, always on my side, he would give me honest feedback, you know, he would, he would tell me if he thought something was off or, but he has read all of my books at least five or six times because he’s one of my paid readers. So he’s been a wonderful a wonderful support and never lets me get discouraged for long, long.

Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We always have that voice in our head.

Karen: Yes.

Mark: So let’s go to research a little bit. When we were you, you had mentioned the, some of the historical facts that you like to put in there. You have Vietnam. What kind of research went into all the book?

Karen: So I, first of all, I lived through Vietnam with Bob, so I knew it from [00:15:00] my wife Lee. You know, perspective. I mean, we, we would, he and his mom and dad would sit and watch the TV and watch the name scrolling to see if, if his plane went down and if his name was, I mean, it was a terrible time. When you, you, that, that’s one of the ways you found out people were dead, you know, on the news.

So, I, I had you know, feelings about the time and, but I had to ask him so many questions, but, and I asked his brother too, ’cause his brother had been in Vietnam. They, they weren’t allowed to be there at the same time. So his brother was there first, and then his brother came home and Bob went next.

But then he doesn’t, no, like, he’s an old guy. He doesn’t remember everything. So I had to, I had to go and, and check and see, like, I asked him questions like. You know, I said in, in Kristen Hannah’s book, the Women, the Dust she said was orange. Do you remember the dust being orange? Were like in, in ua. [00:16:00] Was it orange?

He goes, Karen, I don’t remember that. I said, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go and research and see what color the sand was, or the dust was at UA, Vietnam in 1968, and it turned out it wasn’t orange. So, it was a combination of asking questions, remembering things, researching things. And and I thought I didn’t like research Mark, I I, but until I wrote true Grace, which is my historical novel, I always avoided anything that I had to research.

So my first three books were all contemporary, so I could just draw on my own experiences and stuff. But then I found out research is so fun. You find out like the coolest, coolest things. So that was the other thing. After writing True Grace, which is set in 1924, I wanted this book to have some historical part of it since I, I enjoyed writing [00:17:00] for the first time, historical fiction.

Mark: Were there moments in this book that your husband had mentioned, things that he wanted you to put in because they were more authentic to the experience that he had?

Karen: Hmm. You know, it’s interesting, he never only true Grace. Did he ever, ’cause he knew my grandmother and it was inspired by my grandmother. Did he say, well, how come you’re not putting this in? Or how come you’re not putting that in? But with Justice for Emerson, he was just, you know, he just made sure he read it and said, yeah, that makes sense.

I remember that that’s how it felt. You know, for example, addiction became, people came out heavily addicted. Many people, not everybody. Not Bob, but lots of people came out heavily addicted. And he said to me, you know, it cost a dollar and a quarter to buy a whole bottle of scotch. They made it, the, the, the services, the armed services [00:18:00] made it so easy for these men to purchase and drink alcohol. That alcoholism, you know, when you’re, you’re in a war, you’re scared you’re,

Mark: Yeah.

Karen: You know, and, and it’s dirt cheap to, you know, to grab a, to grab a bottle. So I’m very, very grateful that Bob came back sober and, you know, okay, that he, that he didn’t get caught up. But, but I did want Emerson to experience and overcome

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Karen: He could, it was such, and go there for a while. Right. You weren’t sure that Emerson was gonna make it.

Mark: No. How hard was that for you to write? I was, I mean, Emerson probably impacted me emotionally the most for the roller coaster that he went through from losing his fri [00:19:00] well, sorry, I won’t try not to get spoiler, spoiler From what, what happened in the book to him to like the addiction and the back and forth and everything that he’d lost, and I just felt so bad for him. How do you write that? Like, you must feel terrible as you’re writing it.

Karen: Yeah. You know what I tried to do is not judge. So I wanna make sure that my readers see people as whole human beings and they’re not, they’re not judging.

Mark: Hmm.

Karen: And I did. I do have somebody in my life who went through two people who went through, that journey, that addiction journey. And I loved them both so much and watched their struggle and watched losing ground.

And then and they weren’t, you know, Emerson’s age. And it wasn’t Emerson’s story, but I saw that path, [00:20:00] and I wanted to make sure that my readers didn’t judge Judge Emerson, that they, you know, I, or if they did, they did, but not because I wrote it in a way that, that I was judging here. Here’s the story. And so many of the reviews say that they so respected how I, how I handled that without it being, yeah.

Mark: Yeah, it was, it was touching. ’cause it was, I, I was really rooting for a moment and I, I don’t give spoilers, but

Karen: Even though we know he’s dead.

Mark: Yeah, That’s right. Yeah. We know the end result. Yeah,

Karen: opens with Emerson dead in the, in the basement, and so many people said to me, you know, I just put that outta my mind. I was just rooting for him

Mark: yeah,

Karen: the whole, the whole time until we got to the end and like, oh, that’s right. Emon is dead and we’re trying to solve this murder.

Mark: yeah, [00:21:00] yeah. In the back of my mind, I’m thinking, okay, he’s, he’s gonna get to a good place where everything was just great and then he dies tragically, and I can handle that, but I don’t want it to go the other way.

Karen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted him to get to that good place where he was living a good life, and Aria really cared. Everybody at the Way Station really cared about him.

Mark: Yeah. When readers put down this book, what are you hoping they’re gonna feel, or what are you building toward at the end?

Karen: Yeah. So one of the things that I love that readers have, have said to me is that the plight of the unhoused, even though there was just moments in the book, not whole, you know, heavy duty handling, that it got them thinking differently, thinking differently about and so Bob and I with our church, we [00:22:00] volunteer every week.

We go out and we feed folks. We, we at the church, we pack up the food, hot, hot food, and we bring sandwiches to, for takeaway, and we drive to seven, eight places where they’re living and hiding in a town that’s north of us. And so this is something that matters to me a lot. And, and I hope that when people put down the book they’ll look, you know, ’cause we walk past people sitting on the street wrapped up in cardboard and, and judge or ignore or don’t even see, don’t even notice.

So that was one of the things I was hoping that people would have a, a different thought about that. And then I also wanted them to be happy for Aria, you know, to, there’s a splat for your listeners and viewers. There is a big SP splash of romance in this book.[00:23:00]

But that was my hope that they would have empathy for people who struggle ’cause so many of the unhoused also are struggling with addiction. They’re not all, but that’s one of the things that often comes together and. So I hope that people would, would care a little bit more, see a little bit more, think how they might help a little bit more.

Mark: Yeah. That’s awesome. So the protest that was being staged in the food that they fed, was that like kind of almost your, almost like reliving that moment of your own life then when they went out and gave sandwiches and went a little differently for them than you? I am, I hope, but.

Karen: Yes. And it’s interesting, you know, because back in the Vietnam War, I was a pro peace marcher, you know, with the black armband. And, [00:24:00] and, and you know, I was in high, we were in, I was in college and so we were young and protesting the war that Bob was out fighting. You know, he said, you can’t get arrested, Karen, stop it.

You know, it’s gonna affect, it’s gonna affect my future. So I did wanna capture some, some of that, some of the, the activism,

Mark: Yeah,

Karen: That yeah, that was happening.

Mark: it’s so impressive how many things you packed into this book and managed to do it so well.

Karen: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Mark: listeners definitely pick up and read this book. It is so good. One of the interesting things you did was switching point of view, and I hadn’t seen that. I didn’t think I had seen it very much until recently, where you also switched point of view, but tense, or, sorry, not tense.

First persons third

Karen: First person. Yes. Yes. So that the first time I [00:25:00] always wrote in third person, my first three books. We’re, and then when I wrote True Grace, I decided to write it in first person. And so Grace is telling her story when I did. And, and I’ve often done different points of view, you know, switching back and forth.

When I wrote this one, I thought, you know what? This is, yes, this is Emerson’s story, but this is also Aria’s story. So I wanted her to tell her story. But then the other points of view are, are not in first person. And I like trying new things and learning new things. And so one of the lovely, lovely reviews that Best Thriller did when they gave me the, you know, when they made the award for best mystery was they said, I often find the right, the reviewers, and I often find multiple points of view annoying and dual [00:26:00] timelines never, you know, one timeline doesn’t live up to the other, but not so in this case, Karen Osborne pulled this off seamlessly, so that made me feel very, very good because I was, I was experimenting, I was trying something, something new. ’cause it’s fun.

Mark: It did work very well. I hadn’t seen it very much until recently. There’s been a few authors I’ve seen that, that have gone from first person to third person in different chapters

Karen: Yeah,

Mark: But yeah, you did pull it off very well. I have been confused in the past with, with what was happening and, but the titles, the dates at the beginning, the chapter titles of characters when appropriate really helped with that

Karen: yeah. Like grounding the reader where we are, whose point of view are we in? What year is it?

Mark: yeah.

Karen: Yeah. I

Mark: it’s not enough to just start with a sentence that you think makes perfect sense, but the, the reader is trying to understand

Karen: Who is this? Where [00:27:00] are

Mark: Yeah. Who is this again? What am I doing here? Yeah. And where am I? Yeah.

Karen: and where am I?

Mark: What advice would you give to someone who just published their first or second book?

Karen: Wow. So marketing is a bear. It’s a bear. Writers. I know, I know writers who love the marketing part of it, but to me it’s, you have to make some real decisions about how much time you’re going to spend marketing, the two books that you already wrote, or the one book that you already wrote, and how much time are you gonna spend writing the next book?

And then of course there’s the rest of your life. There’s all the other things, you know, in your life. And, and so I, I think really making some decisions about time and money because [00:28:00] no matter who, like I’m traditionally published with a small press, my cousin is self-published with a hybrid press. I have a good friend who’s published with Simon and Schuster, so one of the, you know, the Big five.

All of us have the same problem because unless you’re a big fish, you know, unless you’re, you know, you’re Connolly or Grisham or the, they don’t spend a lot of time helping you promote. I have a friend who is published by a big house, but she’s rich and so she has a publicist, and so her publicist is just getting her on every podcast, every show, every, you know, and getting her out there. So you really have to make, you have to decide, you know, about your budget, your time budget, your money budget, talk to other writers, figure out what works for you. ’cause what works for you might be different, you know, for what works [00:29:00] for, for them.

And I mean, and you, that, that was the biggest like, aha for me after, especially after the second book, because the first book, I was still working. And so I would, people would invite me to come speak and teach and I’d say, oh, may I bring my books with me? And they’d say, oh, absolutely.

And, you know, we’ll set up a table for you. So they’re paying me to speak, they’re flying me to where I am, and I got to sell my books. Well, the second book, I wasn’t working full-time anymore. And so. Now I had to make real decisions. Like for example, I flew all the way to San Francisco from Florida to speak at a winery.

Now it was a real market. It was such a cool gig. They bought 30 books. They had a wine pairing with the book. This is the wine that goes with it, but 30 books does not cover [00:30:00] airfare, hotel food, rental car.

Mark: no.

Karen: you have to make, just, you have to make decisions, even though it was really a cool gig.

Mark: How do you balance when you’re writing versus when you’re marketing? Do you go hard at writing for a while and then switch like to marketing mode after you’re done writing almost like periodical throughout the year, or are you always kind of trying to do both?

Karen: I’m always trying to do both. You know, my son is a very gifted literary writer. He writes short stories, and he gets into really good magazines, like probably two, three a year. And he’s working full time and he has a family, and he said, mom, just find at least 15 minutes a day when you can write, maybe it’ll end up being three hours, maybe, you know, but if you promise yourself 15 minutes a day, you’ll be so surprised at how well, you know, you’d, [00:31:00] how you could keep, keep going.

I tried the novel writing November Nano Rmo, you know, writing your novel, and I was doing it with my grandson, and he said, Grammy, you are behind. Do the math, you won’t make it. So I know that, that, so 15 minutes seems reasonable. Doing 1600 words a day didn’t. And so I have to find the right, you know, the right blend for me.

Yeah. And, and you do have to get the marketing and don’t you, I mean, I know, I know you know this. Yeah.

Mark: The interesting thing about what you say about 15 minutes is I have found the stress of sometimes sitting down at the keyboard and thinking I need to put out 2000 words today can be a lot. The stress of sitting down and saying 15 minutes is not so bad, and sometimes we, I can spend 10, 15 minutes and almost get nothing, and then the words flow because I’ve [00:32:00] taken the time to get into, into, the world, into the moment, into the people, and then all of a sudden that 15 minutes can turn into two hours.

But the first 15 minutes were not productive. It was the next hour and a half that we’re the most productive. Yeah,

Karen: Yeah, but it’s right. It’s less, it’s less daunting. I’m gonna do 15 minutes. The other thing with the marketing is if the person can sprinkle in, in person, you know, don’t just rely on social media, don’t just rely on podcasts as wonderful as they are. Know I have my own as well and promote authors.

But when you meet readers, there’s no, it’s, it’s like the best, best part of it. And it reminds you why you’re writing and, and it reminds you what this, what a gift this is gift to you. It is that you have the privilege that you’ve, that you’ve been published. So I find that if you just can find ways that that in [00:33:00] person, you know, the local library. A local bookstore go to a fair, you know, a fair, that’s not even a book fair because book fairs you’re competing with, you know, I don’t know, 50 other writers. You go to a, you know, a gr a market, you know, a green market, what is it? Market, you know what I mean? The, the, you know, like a ve you know, the fresh market or whatever it is when you’re going out to, when people are out there selling their vegetables and there are other kinds of vendors and you are the only bookseller, that’s great. ‘Cause people will come up to you, they’ll ask you about your books, you know, and I’ll say, are you a reader? No, no, but my mother is. Which one do you think my mother would like? Well, tell me about your mom. You know, it’s, it just, it, it, it gives you really great, connection meeting, meeting readers. It’s, it’s a beautiful thing.

Mark: that’s a great idea. I’ve never thought of going to a non author event to promote, or non-book event to promote a book, [00:34:00] and I’m gonna have to give that a shot.

Karen: You should I sell, I sell more books in non author events than I do in author events.

Mark: Okay. And do you have a table with a banner and all your books laid out and is

Karen: I have a tent, I have a beautiful tent, and, and then I, you know, have all the books displayed. And I have my square, you know, on my phone so I can do credit cards and I can, and I have my all singles. I can do cash and I have all my bookmarks, you know, that we give away free bookmarks and then I, I make sure I’m standing and not sitting, I see a lot of people just sit behind their table and wait for somebody. I’m standing in front of my table. Hey Mark, how are you? Are you a reader? Can I show you something? So

Mark: Oh, I love that. Okay.

Karen: it’s, it’s all, it’s all good. And if you sell, usually they only cost like [00:35:00] $35 for a table, you know that they charge you to be there. So if you sell two books, you’re at least on your way.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And you never know if you’re gonna have a, your next great fan outta super fans, right?

Karen: That’s the other thing that’s so cool is to have, I was at a local event and at least five of the people that came by and bought another book were people who’d read who of my other books. And so they came over and said, oh, you know, I just love this one. And, I’m, I’m thinking about the new one, but I haven’t read this one. And so that’s cool too, to meet people. And, and I always take, pictures so, you know, with the reader holding the books. For social media, I can post it and so people can see that, you know, that somebody likes them.

Mark: yeah, yeah. Are all your books standalones?

Karen: [00:36:00] Yes. I am writing my first sequel ever. ’cause I like trying new

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Karen: So this and that’s, it’s tricky, right? Do you write sequels?

Mark: I did a trilogy that was, that was a lot of work.

Karen: Yes. Oh my goodness. I have to pick your brain later because trying to keep up with, you know, with all of the things and all of the characteristics of the people before and keeping things true to who they were. And, but bringing in new people and it’s, it’s been really, it’s been fun. I’ve been learning a lot and, and I think I’m gonna try it again. I think I’m gonna do a sequel to . To Justice Emerson. I think I’m gonna do an Aria Jacks story.

Mark: Okay. Another thriller.

Karen: Yes. How much trouble can two people keep

Mark: I was just thinking

Karen: you know, [00:37:00] but, but I’m thinking about it, but I, but I gotta get this other one and this one. How much trouble can these two people get into? But here they are once again in trouble. So.

Mark: Where can people find your books?

Karen: So first of all, they’re sold every place you buy books, right? You go, you go to the library. If they’re not on the shelf, just ask for them. You can go to Barnes and Noble, you can go to Amazon. You can go to your independent bookstore. Please do, you know, ask for them. If you don’t see them, chances are you won’t see them, and you should ask for them.

And then, and then you can come to my web website. I’m www.kareneosborne.com. And the e is like, super important because there is a lovely, amazing writer whose name is Karen Osborne, and she got the name first. So I had to add my, you know, she got published before I did. [00:38:00] So I had to add my e She writes mystical and dystopian and I actually interviewed her.

We met.

Mark: Oh wow.

Karen: yeah, she, she saw that I was speaking and it happened to be in a town that she lived in. This is an upstate New York. And this woman walks in and she goes, Hey Karen. E I’m Karen Osborn. She shook my hand. She brought her mother and her daughter. It was so fun. ’cause if you Google Karen Osborne, we both show up.

Mark: Okay. Karen E. Osborn. I’ll link to that in the show notes to make sure I don’t get it

Karen: Thank you. Karen e osborne.com. All my books. Are there links to the places that you can buy them? Are there discussion questions are there. If you’re doing a book club there’s a trailer book, trailer for Justice for Emerson. You can, can watch and then all of my podcasts are there.

Mark: Oh, that’s great. Well, thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun. I’ve, [00:39:00] I’ve loved learning more about this book. I’m excited for the next book that you’re writing. And I have four other books to go back to because I will have to read more of your books. This one was just so good. I have to, I have to read the other ones you’ve written. Thank you for sending that copy is a, a real pleasure to read.

Karen: Thank you so much.

Mark: If you don’t mind sticking around for a, a few extra minutes, we’re gonna get into a rapid fire question for our Patreon members. Thank you.

Thanks for listening and make sure you follow the show so you don’t miss next week’s conversation with Wesley Smith, author of They Came At Night. We talk about blending psychological thriller with action thriller writing from lived trauma, and how he balances outlining with discovery writing to keep tension tight on the page.

If you want the after show with the rapid fire questions, it’s free right now on Patreon, and we include with that some novellas and short stories from guests on the show. The after shows where authors [00:40:00] open up about their writing routines, the scenes they’d least wanna survive, and the strange things they’ve Googled.

Links are in the show notes.

TPP Episode 23 with Adam Roach

Mark: [00:00:00] Coming up on the Thriller Pitch podcast.

Adam: I entered this flash fiction horror contest about a guy who is walking through Bryant Park in New York, gets attacked by a demon, and then the demon flees, and he goes chasing after the demon and watches him transform into a person. And so then the question was, was he actually a demon or was it all in the guy’s head? The judges liked it, but they even said it doesn’t work as a short a hundred word story. It would actually work better as a full book.

Mark: What makes a great thriller tick, and what does it take to write one? Welcome to the Thriller Pitch Podcast, where bestselling award-winning and emerging thriller authors share the craft research and real world experiences that power today’s most gripping stories. I’m your host, mark p Jay Nadal.

Whether you’re writing thrillers or can’t get enough of reading them, this show takes you inside the minds of the authors, behind the twist. Characters and moments that keep us turning the page.

This week I’m [00:01:00] joined by Adam Roach, author of the Ritualist. We talk about how his entire thriller series began with a 100 word flash fiction horror entry. How he expanded that into a series, why he writes scenes by visualizing them like a movie playing in his head, and how he shifts between outlining and discovery writing.

If you’re interested in how a tiny spark becomes a full thriller, this is a conversation you don’t wanna miss. Adam, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show

Adam: Thank you. Glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Mark: and thank you for your book. I’m gonna show it on the screen for our YouTube watchers, the Ritualist. Thank you for sending me an autograph copy. Really appreciate that.

Adam: Yeah.

Mark: So let’s get right into the pitch. Pitch me the ritual list.

Adam: Yeah, so the Rich list is my debut thriller. I launched on June 10th this year, and it follows my main character, Vince Tanaka creating a series similar to Alex Cross and James Patterson. [00:02:00] And it follows him. He’s transitioning from the NYPD to the FBI. He’s in San Diego getting ready to start the FBI when he gets a call that he was not expecting and not wanting from his old captain.

And it simply said he’s back which means the rich list has returned. Three years ago, the ritual list dropped three bodies in three days across churches in Manhattan. And now he has resurfaced and the first body has already dropped. And so Vince knows he now has just a little over two days to get back to New York and to catch this killer before he disappears again for another three years.

And so the story takes up of him going to New York and he and his old partner Leo Alvarez, go on a hunt to find this killer. And you realize very quickly that. There’s a lot more than just this killer at play. And it’s, like I said, it’s the, it’s the opening book. It’s the first book in a series that’s following this character. There’s definitely a bit of a cliffhanger. The story is complete, but there’s a subplot that definitely leaves a cliffhanger for book two, which is gonna be launching here in just a few weeks, actually called the [00:03:00] Architect. So, it’s coming out here December 16th, it should be launching. So, yeah, excited for that.

Mark: Oh, awesome. That’ll be close to when this is live. Actually. It’ll be available when we’re, when this episode actually airs. Awesome. So what sparked the idea for this book?

Adam: Yeah, that’s a great question. And so that probably kicked off originally a handful of years ago I did a flash fiction contest, and so I know you’re an author as well. And it, it’s way easier to write a 70,000 word book than a hundred word story.

And people might not think that’s the case, but it’s extremely hard to write a story in a hundred words.

I challenge anyone to try and go do it. So I entered this flash fiction horror kind of contest about a guy who is walking through Bryant Park in New York, gets attacked by a demon, and then the demon flees, and he goes chasing after the demon and watches him transform into a person. And so then the question was, was he actually a demon or was it all in the guy’s head? The judges liked it, but they even said like, it doesn’t work as a short a hundred, a hundred word story. It would actually [00:04:00] work better as a full book and so when I had finished wrapping, my co-author book, with JD Barker that I just finished I knew I want, I knew I wanted to start the story and I’d already been thinking about the idea and I knew I wanted a main character. I knew I wanted a big series. And so I thought, Hey, let me take this short story and use this as kind of the catalyst to launch into this new series that I’m gonna launch.

Mark: Do you consider yourself a plotter or an outline or a answer as I guess is the more popular term?

Adam: My answer to that is yes, both.

Mark: Okay.

Adam: What I found for myself is that it really depends on the story. I’m constantly evolving. One thing I’ve learned as an author I haven’t been doing this forever. I’ve only been doing it for a few years now, and one thing I’m learning is neither is right or wrong for each book that you do. So like with the Ritualist I kind of did an outline, but then I very quickly threw it away and just went at it like I’m a very impatient person and so to outline a full book is very hard for me because I just wanna start writing the story.

I get really excited about it. And then I’ve tried doing like outline 10 chapters and [00:05:00] write those and then outline the next 10.

And then by that point, then I just keep writing. I don’t really continue that strategy. But like the book I did with JD Barker, it was a full outline. The full book had to be outlined, everything from start to finish. And then with the new one I’m launching, it was a little bit of both again, like did some outlining, some writing, some outlining some writing, and just kind of went in that direction.

So I think it depends on the story, and what book you wanna write? A brand new one. I’m running right now. I’m doing, I did a full outline, just because it fit better with this story and where I wanted it to go.

Mark: And when you outline, are you outlining characters? Obviously we’re looking at the plot in the chapters, but are you also outlining characters? The world, the situations?

Adam: Not really. I find for myself that’s all just kind of in my head. I typically have spent before I start a new book when I get about three quarters of the way through a book, I’m thinking about what’s coming next. I’m starting to plan in my head what the characters are, what the stories are, how’s it gonna work. And I typically, my wife and I’ll go on walks every week and I’ll typically just kind of talk through it with her to kind of [00:06:00] formulate how different, strategies are gonna work. So the outline itself really only comes with the overall plot the character arcs and the character storylines are just kind of in my head. I let them evolve on the page and let the characters tell me what they want to do.

Mark: Do you find it hard to keep track of that over time when it’s in your head and not written down? And you have a, you have quite a cast of characters too, so you have a lot of personalities to switch between.

Adam: Not really. And I don’t know, maybe that’s, I need to go get my brain checked or something. I don’t know. But it’s not, not, not really. ’cause every time I write a book, all I’m really doing is telling the story that, of the movie I’m playing in my head. And so for me, the characters just are who they are. And I think every character that anybody writes, there’s a little piece of you in every character in, in some way, shape, or form.

And yeah, so I, I haven’t yet, right, so this, but this is book one, so ask me again, like four books from now if I’ve changed my mind.

Mark: Okay. At its core, what would you say this story is [00:07:00] like and what challenge did it represent? As for writing it.

Adam: That’s a good question. I would say at the core it is a battle of good versus evil. My goal in writing this book, in this series is, I always love the dichotomy of good and evil, yin and yang of a Batman and Joker, Holmes im Moriarty. I really like bad guys that you almost can understand, and you almost feel a little bad for in a certain ways. I just, I love to challenge people’s thinking in that way. And so that’s what I’ve done with Rich List. I’ve tried to deal with the architect, and really just creating that dichotomy of I said good versus evil. That, that challenge of really smart, good guy, really smart, bad guy and how’s it all gonna play out in the, in the long term.

Mark: And did that present challenges for you in this book?

Adam: To a certain extent, yes, because I always wanna make sure that the bad guy isn’t too good also. Right? Because if [00:08:00] he’s always got a reason, sometimes you don’t want them to have a reason or you want them to be more evil. And so you gotta find that balance. And with this book, I don’t think I found as big of a challenge.

I did definitely a little bit more of a challenge in the next one to do that. ‘Cause it’s a different story, but this one I think, ’cause it was my first one, I was excited about it and I kind of had been thinking about it for a while, that it was just living in me for a while. I just needed to get out on the page.

Mark: Okay. The structure of this one, you, interestingly, you started with a character that at the prison, and then we go into our antagonist and then we go into our protagonist. Why that start to a book where. I liked it because it’s, I have like an inside that as a reader I have like an inside edge that, you know, it’s fun to let the detective try and figure out what’s happening. On the flip side, it’s trying to keep track of everyone I’ve just met.

Adam: Yeah. I would like to say it was [00:09:00] intentional, and that I, I was some genius and had this all planned from the start. But in reality it’s the exact opposite. I had written about, I. Half to almost two thirds of this book, thinking in my head that Vince had three days to catch this killer, when in reality he had like 48 hours, if not a little bit less. And what I realized, the way that I had structured the book originally it was thinking like he’s got 72 hours. I can pull things out, I can draw things out a little bit. I can slowly introduce characters. And then when I realized about halfway in that, oh no, he’s got like 48 hours at the most. All of this drawn out stuff I have to make happen in the beginning. So all that character introduction that’s kind of thrown at the reader, initially was because I completely had messed up my timeline and so I had to put it all in the beginning and figure out a way to make it work. So it, it seemed to work as well as it could. I definitely got from a few people that like, man, there’s a lot of characters. In the very beginning I was like, yeah, I know. Sorry.

Mark: Did you do [00:10:00] a whole first draft, realize that, and then the second draft was like a fairly big rewrite, or did you realize it during the way, on the way

Adam: I realized it during the way, but I was so deep in along the way that I would had to completely redo the entire book and restructure the entire architecture of it. And even like the three days. Mantra would, might have disappeared at that point. So with everything happening the way it had to happen in terms of them even catching the bad guy, all those things had to be lined up in that certain way to make that happen. And if I didn’t do it like I did it, it would’ve been almost a complete different book.

Mark: Okay. When readers finish the book, what do you hope they’re thinking or feeling after they’re done?

Adam: I have to get the next one. I mean, truly, that’s what it is. My, my goal with every book I write is I want to do two things. One. Make people so glad they read it. There’s [00:11:00] nothing worse in my mind than reading a book and you’re like, I just wasted my time.

And when you feel let down by the twist at the end, or you feel let down by this, the big buildup to the end, and you almost feel like the writer wrote themselves into corner and just said, up, here’s my way out. My goal is every reader, when they close that book, they feel satisfied. They’re super excited to read whatever’s next, and there’s some twist at the end where they’re like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe that happened.

Mark: How do you structure a twist? Do you, for this book? Well, we’re not gonna talk about the twist itself, obviously, because that would be a giveaway, but did you have it in your head the whole time? Because you’ve been thinking about this, or at three quarter mark, you’re like, oh, that’s what we’re gonna do with that.

Adam: No. With this one and subsequent books, I had a pretty good idea of what it was gonna be for a while. ‘Cause like I said, I love the dichotomy of like a Batman versus Joker, Holmes versus Moriarty, where you’ve got that big bad mastermind kind of character. I love movies like that too, where it’s like, you think [00:12:00] it’s this and it’s this. Right? My favorite movie of all time is The Usual Suspects. That twisted the end when I was 13, 14 years old and saw that, it blew my mind. So yeah, I think so far of the books I’ve written, I typically know what the twist is going to be and how it’s going to hit for people so far. And I feel like for me, in the books that I’m writing I almost have to know that ’cause that’s the ending, right? Like you have to know the end before you start writing it. If I don’t know what that twist is, I’m kind of like, why am I even writing this?

Mark: Yeah. Okay. In the making of this book, the dedication to your wife, I’m always curious about the support network behind the making of a book because the, a lot of the great books I read have a strong support network. Behind the scenes and it was nice to see that you, you put that into your dedication. What was that support like for this book?

Adam: Unending. It’s, her [00:13:00] support is absolutely everything. Like I said we do a walk every, we, I live in San Diego, so, it’s Sunshine, 364 days a year and so we do a walk every Saturday at the beach. And typically those walks are talking about whatever I’m currently riding. And she’s kinda my sounding board.

And she, she’s always asking the why’s, like, well, well, but, but why? But why, but why? And I, and most time, ’em, I hate it. ‘Cause it makes me think,

But it’s, it’s everything. And she knows that this is the path that I’m on. This is the goal is that this becomes the only thing I do. And with that comes a lot of work and effort.

I spent the entire last weekend with my head and computer trying to get book two out to my arc reader. So yeah, her support is absolutely everything. If I didn’t have that, I wouldn’t have the drive. I have for sure.

Mark: Does she read a draft of your book before it goes to your ARC readers or.

Adam: No, she doesn’t, mainly, I mean, she does a ton of audio books, but she doesn’t sit down long enough to really read a lot of times, so she’s, she’s still working through the ritual list as we speak. She’ll read it like as we’re going on [00:14:00] trips or whatever was we’re driving. She’ll, she’ll read and stuff like that. But we’re always talking about the story, so she knows what’s happening. She knows what’s coming. And it’s a little scary, and I don’t recommend this for everybody, but I’ve been sending my books out. So the ritualist just, it just went out to ARC Readers and I didn’t have beta read, no one had read it. I just sent it out to ARC Readers. And I did the same thing with book two. So we’ll see how it goes. I don’t recommend doing that all the time, but at least for these first two books, it’s just kind of how I did it. And we will, we’ll adjust as, as time goes on, for sure.

Mark: Are you hoping ARC readers give feedback and then there’s time for change, or I should say in this, the ritual list, was there time to make adjustments if an ARC reader brought anything to you? If they did.

Adam: I guess there could have been, yes, but they didn’t which I was pleasantly surprised by, I’ve got a solid, I mean I pay for a very solid editor. Lemme say that up front too, that he does copy line edit and a little development in certain, in terms of, he calls things out like, this doesn’t make sense. You might wanna change this. This doesn’t fit with the storyline up here. So he’s almost a pseudo alpha beta reader for me in the editing [00:15:00] process. But there would’ve been time for the arc. Sure, there always is, in my opinion. But I didn’t have to, it all made sense. So yeah.

Mark: Okay. What research went into this, into the creation of this book?

Adam: To be honest, not a ton in the sense of I have been reading thrillers and this type of book for decades. So I feel like I know the genre really well. I love thriller movies. I’ll read or watch almost any kind of thriller that’s been out there. And so I definitely studied James Patterson a lot over the years and how he does story and how he writes books and how, and just not just reefer and joint, but like I would just say, oh, that’s why he did this and that’s how he did that. And so over time there’s always been that research, but I didn’t necessarily sit down and like start researching I PD facts or FBI facts. What I try, I don’t, I don’t try and make my books police procedural. I try and put just enough in it to make it real, but it’s more about [00:16:00] the overall story than it is about the details of how a police as investigation goes.

Mark: Okay. What about the church and the cults and all that, that has kind of steamed throughout

Adam: Yeah, I did a little bit of research for that. So as I was wanting to find the right churches and stuff, none of those churches are actual churches, but they’re very close to an actual church sort of thing. I always try to be just off. Of an actual location in New York.

But, I spent quite a bit of time in New York over the last couple years also, myself, so I, know the city a little bit enough to know like the sounds and just kinda all that side of the storyline, and the cold aspects. I did do some research into that and just making sure that things were accurate and how cults operate and such and such.

Mark: Okay. Were you ever worried that given like the church and almost the self manipulation of religion, that would come back with people saying anything?

Adam: I don’t think so because it wasn’t necessarily, I mean, I’m a religious person myself. I go to church every Sunday. And I wasn’t necessarily [00:17:00] bashing a religion per se as much as it was a deranged person’s safety spot. And like he thinks in the book, he’s saving people in that sense. So I know a lot about religion and spiritual side of things I felt like I was coming from a place of understanding and not trying to denigrate any religion specifically is more a disturbed individual.

Mark: Yeah. A question from Melissa Miller, who was the author from the last episode She asked did you relate to or have empathy for your antagonist? I ask it now because it kind of fits where we’re at.

Adam: There really tough empathy for my antagonist. I feel like a little bit, yeah. Empathy, not relate, but empathy. And like I said earlier, that’s my goal is that I want to build antagonist that’s you almost feel a little sorry for, you’re almost a little empathetic for it. Like you, you almost understand why they’re doing [00:18:00] what they’re doing. I’m not saying it’s gonna be every bad guy that I ever write, but at least right now, I’m having fun trying to find that balance between, that good versus evil and that anyone can go bad potentially in certain ways. So yeah.

Mark: Who is the most fun character for you to write?

Adam: Oh, that’s a great question. I love writing Vince. I love writing Vince and his wife Liz. I think that that’s a fun dynamic and I pull a lot from my own personal marriage for how they interact and stuff like that. Vince has been a super fun character to write so far. I was just like writing the dynamic between Vince and Leo and it was funny as I was writing this book obviously Leo’s not gonna continue in the series wholly because Vince is going to the FBI and he’s gonna be on the other coast. But I found myself almost wondering, like, do I change the whole mantra here and keep him in the nipd so they can keep working together? Because I had so much fun writing these characters and I was like. I’m not writing these characters, I’m gonna have to write all new characters for book two. But yeah, so I, I say Vince is [00:19:00] probably my favorite character to write. And then there’s a antagonist I won’t say, but has been super fun to, to work with and to write in that storyline.

Mark: Okay. Was there a scene or a moment that was the hardest to write in this story, creatively or emotionally for the impact?

Adam: That’s a great question. I don’t. Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head. Maybe a little bit of the scene with the antagonist in the park with the demon. Just a little heavy to write that, thinking about like, because again, I tried to visualize everything that’s happening and to put yourself in that position, it’s, a little freaky in that sense.

Mark: One of the things I really appreciated, I don’t possible, spoiler alert, I don’t think so though, but it’s at the end, but I’m not giving away. What happens is, in the final moments with the final victim and the girlfriend and her the realism of her having to decide whether or not, because it was almost a [00:20:00] casual relationship or early relationship stage, whether or not she was gonna continue in that relationship. And that was, I thought that was a very powerful thought, because usually it’s sacrificial, you know, oh, I have to, I’ll be with them. But she actually stopped to say, I don’t know if I can do this.

Adam: Yep.

Mark: How is that to write?

Adam: yeah. I sat in that scene for a little bit, ’cause the question was. Does she stay or does she go? And I thought about it and I went back and forth. And then I thought to your point, you know, it being a casual relationship, that it made sense that she was gonna go, and also because of other things that happened with her, previous to this book that kind of has alluded to previous to this book. She’s had some trauma and she wasn’t really in a place to be able to take on more in that sense. And so it was an interesting scene to write and it was a little bit difficult to make that decision. ‘Cause as a [00:21:00] writer you’re realizing based on this choice, it’s gonna completely change how other things happen within the storylines moving forward even.

And so it was a, it was a powerful, impactful moment to make that decision. And how Vince interacts with her and almost acts as a big brother of sorts. A little more mature, a little more grounded. And, I sat also in her question back to him. Again, not to get into spoilers, but, I sat in that response, like, how is he gonna respond to this question? And again, I just kind of put myself in the shoes of Vince. If it was me being asked this question, how would I respond? And so that’s kind of what I, that’s why I responded how Vince responded the way he did.

Mark: In book two, does that play out more without spoiling book two? Yeah. Okay.

Adam: Yes. Yeah. And I’ll, what I will say about book two and I don’t, one of my ARC readers, I don’t even know if they have finished it yet, but they had asked me a question in an email. And because of that question, it created a whole storyline [00:22:00] in book two for me. If you never know, if you read my books and you ask me a question, you’re, you might create big, creating a storyline in a future book. So,

Mark: Nice.

Adam: yeah.

Mark: What advice would you give to someone who just published their first or second book?

Adam: I’ve heard it said many times and so true. Write the next one.

Mark: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, you’re not gonna get wealthy off one book, that’s for sure. I think any established author knows that 100%. And just treat it as a learning experience, one book doesn’t mean the end. One book is just the beginning and there’s a lot to learn for sure. Especially if you’re trying to be self-published and you’re trying to make a career out of it, but you don’t need to learn it all in a day. And really it’s about patient and working on the next one. Those are the biggest thing I’m always having to remind myself is be patient. I’m trying to get there as fast as possible and you just can’t do that with one book. You need a lot. And so the only thing you can do is write the next one. Just keep living life and just keep enjoying the process. Keep enjoying [00:23:00] learning.

Mark: Yeah. Thank you. If you had to pick one thing that you felt has led to your success so far, what would it be?

Adam: It’s funny you say that ’cause I obviously don’t view myself as successful by any means. But everyone’s got d different definitions of success. But for me, I would say believing in myself, knowing that I can write, knowing that I’m a good writer has really helped me just push forward. I think in this industry especially, which is funny, I say that because every time I’m writing a new book, I think it’s the worst thing I’ve ever written in my entire life, and it’s absolute crap. But then I remind myself, no, and I would say what’s the word I’m looking for? As a writer, I can remember the words once when I’m talking. A fortitude of the mind, meaning that like even in those moments where I’m like, wow, I really suck at this. Even that’s the front of my mind, the back of my mind. I’m like, no, you don’t Keep going. Just push through. And just having that fortitude of just not listening to your own internal critics [00:24:00] and just keep your head down and keep moving forward even if it’s only a hundred words a day, it’s a hundred words a day.

Mark: Is telling yourself that how you built the confidence in yourself and in your writing.

Adam: So the way that I built the compass in my writing is a few years ago, I wrote a book for my son. That’s a whole other storyline that if I don’t have time for on this call. But I wrote a book for him, and I, my goal was to get it published for him, and that was it. And I did that and, but at the same, I was like, let me see what the world thinks of this. And so I threw some books to grammars and some for some review copies and stuff like that. And I was like, if they all hate it, that’s fine. I wrote it for him. I did that. I mean, I’ve, I, I’d always loved writing even before that. But they came back with amazing reviews. They loved it. They thought it was great. They thought it was new and invented and innovative, and they thought it was, you know, fantastic. And so I was like, that gave me that initial boost of confidence to be like, oh, okay, strangers think this is decent, let’s go. And that’s [00:25:00] kind of all I really needed because like, I knew I was a decent rider for a while, but hearing strangers say that I’m good, I’m decent, was all I needed.

Mark: Hmm. So you have that book for your son. You have, the one you did with it was JD Barker, I believe you said. How long did it take you to write this book? Is this the third, essentially your third book, but the first in this series.

Adam: No. Technically it is my four fifth book that I’ve written. I had a few y fantasy books that I did in COVID 2021, 2022 that I’ve since pre-published. Because I’m, I’m focusing on thrillers in, in that genre, mystery, suspense. So I’ve written a handful of books. I think JD Barker says you have to write 500,000 words to a million words to really get to the point where you’re like you, you know, what you can do kind of thing. And I think I’m kind of at that point, to be honest. Like if each book’s around 60, 70,000 words, three, four books in, it’s, it’s getting [00:26:00] close. The Ritualist is my first main one in the thriller genre.

Mark: Okay.

Adam: I dunno if I answered your question at all or not.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And then the question being, so now that was there a difference with this book and how long it took you to write and, and we talked a little bit about the process, but whether or not, the length of time from initial thought to a published product was faster because we didn’t really get into how long it took you from beginning to published.

Adam: right. No, it’s, it’s definitely the speed is picking up for sure. And I think that’s because I’m starting to find my rhythm. I’m starting to find my flow of when I write every day how I write, how often do I write, how fast I can write. I kind of know all that now. And so my goal is to put out between three to four books a year. I haven’t done that yet. That’s why I say it’s my goal. So 2026 is my first real year where I try and make that happen. We’ll see if it, if it holds true.

Mark: Do you have the plot developed for or ideas for the next three books? Is that how [00:27:00] you’re gonna, because it’s a se I imagine you’re doing the series the next three books.

Adam: Yes and no. So I’m not doing the series the whole time. My, my plan next year is to so the architect is gonna be booked two in the Vince Naka series. Then I’m, I’m working on a standalone also right now ’cause the architect’s done right? So I’m working on what’s next, which is gonna be a standalone. My goal is to alternate moving forward. So Vince knock a book, a standalone, Vince knock, a book, a standalone, just to break it up for myself, so I don’t get too burnt out in the series world. And so my goal next year would be to put out, two standalones and a Vince Akaka book, if not two Vince’s. But we’ll see. And then in terms of your question, I know the general premise for the next two after the architect for the Vince knock book, I know the next two. So the books three and four, I know the very vague general idea. And I typically don’t start thinking about what the actual plot until I’m about three quarters of the way through whatever I’m currently writing. And then my brain just starts kicking in like, okay, we’re almost done here. Let’s [00:28:00] focus on what’s next.

Mark: That’s a very ambitious goal to do two or three books in a year. I had the same goal, and that was quickly packed away from, because you realize, well, for me, I, I also, I use beta readers, but when you have the beta readers and the editor and then the readers, I mean, if you go back to your editor for a second time for proofread or like that whole process, it takes a lot of time even when, even if I can write a book in two months, it’s still six months from release kind of thing.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where I haven’t used beta readers yet, honestly, partly for that reason because I’m just trying to cut out some time if I’m starting to find that my books are starting to wane a little bit and maybe they need a little bit more like other eyeballs, I’ll do that. But I haven’t needed to yet. But again, I’ve only done a few, so I’m, I’m still newer in this world, so I, I, I acknowledge that. Yeah. But you’re right, there’s only so much time and there’s some of that time is not in your hands at all.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. My last question for you, where [00:29:00] can listeners find your book?

Adam: Yeah. So it is in KU on Amazon. So if you’re looking for the ebook version, that’s where you’re gonna find it. If you’re looking for paperback, you can find on Amazon, you can find sign copies on my website, Adam Roach books.com. And yeah, those are the two main places you can find it.

Mark: Oh, that’s great. Thank you so much for your time. I will link to that in the show notes. And thank you again for the book. I really enjoyed this read, so I’m looking forward to book two when it releases. And I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

Adam: Thank you.

Mark: If you don’t mind sticking around, we’ll, we’ll hit the after show for, for our Patreon members.

Adam: Sounds great.

Mark: Thanks.

Thanks for listening and make sure you follow the show so you don’t miss next week’s conversation with Karen Osborne. We dig into the dual timelines and justice for Emerson, how her husband’s Vietnam experiences help shape Emerson’s story and the way she pulls character details from real people she encounters in everyday life.

If you want the after [00:30:00] show with the rapid fire questions, it’s free right now on Patreon, that’s where authors open up about their writing routines, the scenes they’d least wanna survive, and the strange things they’ve Googled. Links are in the show notes.

TPP Episode 19 with Mark Philbin

Mark N: [00:00:00] Hello, mark, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here today.

Mark P: Oh, mark. I really appreciate it. Thanks, and thanks for all you’re doing for thriller writers and readers everywhere to get these books out to people and introduce ’em to new authors. It’s a, it’s a great platform and thanks for doing it.

Mark N: You’re welcome. Thank you. I have your book here with me, killed them all. A great read. I’m very excited to talk about this book ’cause there’s so many things I loved about it. So let’s get into it. Let’s start with the pitch before I pitch it for you by talking too much about it.

Mark P: Okay, well, let’s start by imagining a where 12 victims in 12 months would be killed in 12 cities Distance becomes part of the distraction and motive becomes part of the mundane and everything becomes hidden in the noise. But why would you choose to do it that way if you didn’t wanna take credit? Now imagine that there’s this washed up [00:01:00] poker playing mid thirties guy who’s a brainiac, but he is very good at pattern finding, but his aversion to authority has ruined his career, has got him fired from whatever jobs he could get. He’s now worked himself through a marriage and he is to the point where the only way he can survive is to hustle.

College kids at poker games. then comes a knock at the door he doesn’t deserve. And his former Harvard roommate who’s now an FBI agent, brings him this puzzle. It’s early May three men have died under unusual circumstances. Can he find a pattern while he does? Otherwise it would be a very short book, he does. But from there this cooperation and this chance that he has to do to be able to turn it around. so what starts out as a quiet scheme in the background becomes a chase across the United States to stay one step ahead of Hannah and [00:02:00] this FBI task force. And before he can get to the end, he knows he’s gotta be able to take this temporary, he has turn it into teamwork and discover the one thing he needs. And that isn’t just where or who he needs to find out why. So let’s begin because the calendar is ticking.

Mark N: Thank you. That’s a wonderful pitch. Thank you.

Mark P: You’re welcome.

Mark N: Very well done. So let’s start from the beginning. Where did this idea come from?

Mark P: I had been at a Toronto Blue Jay game. It was I could probably look up the day it was the final Tuesday in April because they have dollar hotdog days. So my son and I met our i.

who lives in Toronto. We went to the game because Joey Chestnut, who always wins the hotdog 4th of July hotdog eating contest, he’ll eat 70 in 10 minutes.

He was throwing out the first pitch. I think he’s the greatest living athlete. Can you [00:03:00] imagine eating 70 hotdog in 10 minutes? This guy’s a beast. so I, I got a chance to meet him through radio contacts and we enjoyed the game. And I had watched a Jeffrey Deaver Masterclass podcast video he had done on YouTube because I just finished my second book and I was beginning to plot out my third book, and he said some remarkable things, including why kill one if you can kill 10. And come up with a title that’s just so explosive it jumps out off the shelves because you’re amongst so many others. And make the theme as big as you can make it the motive and the theme behind it. So this was all kind of stuck in my mind throughout the day. On the way back, I’m on the go train from Union Station to Oshawa for an hour.

My son, of course has his earbuds in or he’s sleeping I have an hour to sit there and I probably conceived 50% of the plot just sitting on the train [00:04:00] thinking about, well, one, you know, don’t kill one. But what about 12? What about one a month? what I kept landing on was something thriller authored Linwood Barkley had had talked to, I’d interviewed him a couple of times and he starts all this plotting with what if. What if you woke up and your entire family was gone and for 25 years you never knew why, and that was the beginning of no time for Goodbye. His breakout book wasn’t his first, but his big first breakout book.

Mark N: Okay.

Mark P: wanna do what if. I am always really enthralled with why Wood. So why would somebody put together a plot of 12 people in 12 months, in 12 cities?

Mark N: Mm-hmm.

Mark P: the idea because everybody could follow that. It’s not a difficult thing to believe in. You could follow it throughout. And when people that I know have read the book, they’ve told me I’m at July, I’m at August. You

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: becomes how they understand the plot so well. The chapters becoming important.

It’s all about what month you’re [00:05:00] in. So I thought if I could, if I, but why would that have to work? So it was putting together a client and a killer and the victims that would make sense of a plot that had to be done that way. And like I said, probably by the time I stepped off the go train, I was probably 50% of the way there, which, you know, as an author really is the easy 50%.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: rest is the small details and the editing and making sure that, yeah, it’s plausible and it’s realistic, but it’s still thrilling and coming up with all of those details and so that’s where it came from I was very much inspired by Jeffrey Dever bone collector fame on really saying take what you like, but blow it up, make it bigger.

Mark N: Did you consider that an outline when you were doing that, or did, because that was your outline when you were on the training?

Mark P: I did do an outline because that was the end of April. I then went back to Toronto. Thanks. It’s funny you mention that. I went back to Toronto again for the first weekend in June for motive [00:06:00] the thriller and crime writers festival again, Lin Wood Barky was their shared SI got to meet Anthony Horowitz there,

Mark N: Nice.

Mark P: Only a hero of mine. He got my son reading through the Alex Ryder series, so to get a chance to talk to him and thank him on behalf of what he did for my son to be, to become a reader. So I got to meet a lot of really great ones. And as I told them afterwards I went there looking for information left with inspiration

Mark N: Mm-hmm.

Mark P: I took what outline I had that Monday, the day after I got back and I wrote the first draft, appeal them all in seven weeks.

Mark N: Wow.

Mark P: by what I heard. Not to be afraid to write with abandon ’cause you’re just going to clean it up in editing. I always try and write a clean first draft and I still catch myself doing it, but don’t get so lost now in the details that you miss the big joy of what your story is. So I really went with abandoned, hoping to [00:07:00] get it done and edited sort of for the fall of 2023 for the querying season of the fall.

Mark N: Mm-hmm.

Mark P: and ended up hitting it. Got an editor in New York to work with me on cleaning it up in time. But the outline of things like what are the cities, what are the methods of death? who are the victims, you know? So I have these sheets that I went through and then matched them up. probably I spent maybe a month on it. I was mowing my lawn when I came up with one of the key details that links the victims together. And I went, Ooh, that’s an interesting way of going about it, because I know how the book ends.

A little bit of foreshadowing. I thought, oh that’s a good one. So mow the rest along the one back, write that one out. And once I had all of that then, and then I said, and then the inspiration from that writing festival and if you’re a writer, I suggest do the best you can to go to one of those.

You don’t have to go to that one, but one that’s close to you, even if it’s just for a few hours. So very inspiring to[00:08:00]

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: Other people’s journeys, especially ones that I think are at the pinnacle or at the top that say you’re never really that far. If you’ve got a book in the marketplace, you’re ahead of 99.9% of anybody who’s ever wanted to write a book, let alone has something available for publishing.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: at it with abandoned, trust your story, trust your voice and if the outline’s good and it’s plausible, you’re probably going to find a place for it in the marketplace.

Mark N: Nice.

Mark P: that, what I did by the time I was ready to go Labor Day of 2023, and I got picked up in April of 2024, released May 6th year of 2025.

Mark N: That’s awesome. Congratulations. That is a very fast turnover in that seven weeks.

Mark P: too. Yeah.

Mark N: Yeah. Yeah. Especially if that’s, is that the first book you’ve ever written through this inspiration?

Mark P: No, I wrote two others that have been shelved. The second book was the first thriller. The first was something I had, ’cause when I was done the morning show, I used to go for a walk before I would go back and record commercial and stuff. Well, the radio station just [00:09:00] happens to be beside Bellville Cemetery. if you’re looking for inspiration and one day, because I’m so brave, a white plastic bag blew out from behind a tree and I think I fainted. I might have screamed. well, ’cause I’m

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: about things. ‘Cause you know, when you’re in radio, you’re four hours on the air, 20 hours preparing.

Everything becomes the bit Mr. Jerry Seinfeld says, you’re never truly present. You’re always looking for the next thing to talk about by observing what’s going on. And then I thought, oh, well that would be crazy. That wouldn’t be a ghost. And then I thought, well if that was a ghost, why would a ghost step out behind a tree and want to talk to me?

And that became a book called From Ashes. And that took about a year of outlining. And then in the pandemic 2022, my daughter from Toronto was home with us. And she said, dad, when are you gonna write that book? When are you gonna write that book? So I probably took six months to write the first draft of it and thought I had scaled a mountain when I typed the end because you think, [00:10:00] wow, I wrote a book.

And then the funny thing is, once you’ve done it, once you find you can do it again.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: Was a thriller I’ve always had in my mind, called Give me Death, give me Liberty, or Give me Death. And I really liked that. And I was going to start working on editing and querying that when Kill Them All entered mind and I said, no, I think this is the one I really wanna work on.

This is the one I think that has a better shot. this is the third. I’ve since written two more that are coming out next year. And on this past weekend, I just finished my sixth book. And then I’m gonna go back and give them death a shot. I’m going to give me death. I’m gonna, I’m gonna work on the edits to that. ’cause I think that’s a good one too. And, and I think of a better writer. The work with the editors has made me a better editor.

Mark N: Mm-hmm.

Mark P: so as they say, nothing’s ever shelved, you know, shelved for now.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: but you can always go back and revisit an idea, revisit a novel, revisit a manuscript or an idea, don’t kill your doll, just tuck them away somewhere.

You’re going to use them in another book. If it was a [00:11:00] good idea, maybe it isn’t for that book,

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: it, it sure could be somewhere else.

Mark N: That’s an impressive turnover, even from your first novel. ’cause one thing I hear a lot is when authors say, and me included, that it took many years. I think I spent like 10 years on my first book just on and off and life and everything else gets in the way. So that’s, that’s great that you also did, you’ve, I mean, you’ve been quite prolific right from the get go almost from 2020.

Mark P: Lee Child of Jack er fame I bought A-A-B-B-C masterclass of his, and I really enjoyed it too. And one of the things he says is and it’s one thing that I’ve done toxic libraries and you tend to get, the older demographic will come out to a library, which I love. Thank you. And I always tell them, if you’re here as a writer, it’s never too late.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: too old. Because as, you know, Lee Child said, I don’t know. And, and I agree with them. I don’t know if I could have been a writer at 30.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: if I had to wait till I was 59. [00:12:00] I’m 62 now. I don’t know if I had to wait till I was 59, but I know that sped up the process. Yes, I write in my radio and speech writing capacity, and I understand the need for brevity. I understand the need when you’re on the radio. You gotta get in and you gotta get out. So there’s not a lot of wasted language.

Mark N: Mm-hmm.

Mark P: When I talk about a clean first draft, I understand that first page desire, that first chapter desire, and why the last page and last chapter should lead into the next book or should lead them with wanting enough to say what, wow, what else has this guy written or this woman written.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: so I started with that already. I don’t have an aversion to editors. So the process of trying to get a book published, is not unlike being in radio and having somebody do what’s called an air check, where they listen to your show, make suggestions on how to make it better. And, you know here we are in baseball season with the, the js. I think of editors, it’s like a first base coach. They’re not running the [00:13:00] basis, but they can see everything that’s going on. They’re editing other books so they know where your book’s gonna slot in. And you know what, if you can kind of tuck it a little bit more over to this side and lean a little bit more into that theme, that’s gonna steer away from what everybody else is doing right now and

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: a book, a chance to shine, an editor can do that.

I know some people are like, oh, nobody’s gonna tell me what to do. And that’s all well and good. But if they’re going to offer from a publisher to get you that editor, I think what a gift to be able to have somebody who has eyes on the full look of the industry to say, this is where your book’s gonna fit, and I think it’s gonna be strong. Or this is a good first effort or all of the things that you can get. And then use those tips moving forward to become a better writer. So, I thank you for the compliment. I was surprised as well when I got accepted in May. It was on the shelves 13 months later. But I think, that might be because of my age that I easier to work with, I think, than I would’ve been when I [00:14:00] was sturdy. Well, I’m sure we’ll get into the book, but somebody asked me how much of Robert, Hannah is you? And I said, all of Robert Hannah’s bad characteristics are me. And the bumper, the hired killer. And that’s not a spoiler alert. The first two words of the

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: the bumper. I think at the beginning of the book have my best qualities about, a little bit more about the patients versus the aversion to authority, which when you’re a smart Alec morning guy, you know, you know, like people, you know. So all of these things I had to evolve to become better. Played out on the page, the way it worked out. So, yeah, 59, I think I was probably right. But to your point about being prolific, I’m running out of time Mark, so you know, so many books. If I’ve, if I can sit down now in retirement, it’s just my wife and I now, so I think I can peel off two a year, which I’ve been doing,

Mark N: Nice.

Mark P: been lucky enough that my publisher enjoyed, kill them all.

Enough sales have been good that they jumped on the [00:15:00] next book and then I said, I have the follow up to kill them all. Done. They’re like, Zo, and then said, let’s do, let’s do two in 2026. And so that one will come out as well. So I’m very excited about that. Busy,

Mark N: awesome. Yeah.

Mark P: Yeah.

Mark N: Yeah, as I was reading Robert Hannah, I also was thinking ahead on your behalf, being like, I was thinking, wow, this would actually make a great series. You could write another book. ’cause he’s, he’s such a fun unique character that you could definitely write another book.

So I’m excited for that next book you have coming out. Yeah.

Mark P: you. I, the follow up was really fun to write, and my son and I went hiking in Algonquin Park this summer, and he’s 32 years old, so he doesn’t want to go at dad’s pace, even though I thought I kept up pretty well, but not that good. he’d always be about a hundred feet up, so I would have four hours to myself.

And so I said to him on one of the paths, I said, you go just stay within eyesight in case I fall down. But I’m going to conceive the next Robert Hann book. And so on that four hour, I think I came up with the, the plot for the third [00:16:00] book, which I do wanna have a series of them. And I’ve got. Characters and, and we’ll talk a little bit about it. I don’t think of them as secondary characters because kill them all, every character has agency.

Mark N: Mm-hmm.

Mark P: is affected at the end of the book. Nobody gets away unscathed. And so some of these other characters could have offshoots, of their own books or they get to shine a little bit more with Robert playing a part.

And, I think of the great Michael Conley that way,

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: will have Bosch or who will have the Lincoln lawyer.

Mark N: Mm-hmm.

Mark P: one of the other characters like Rachel Ballard will be included and work with Bos. So then she has a twist and you can do different things with it. I was very conscious of not pigeonholing them into these specific roles. People get promoted at the FBI, people retire at the FBI, new people come into the FBI, so he’s this outsider coming in, but so do other people. And so [00:17:00] you begin to have different dynamics and different plots and I’m excited about it. Very excited about the, follow up to this called Echoes of Death when it comes out.

I really enjoyed exploring the characters a second time based on where I left them, but continued to evolve with them.

Mark N: Hmm.

Mark P: I really enjoyed that process a lot.

Mark N: When you originally created all these characters, how did you make them so distinct? Do you have a profile sheet or, or like an, you know, they say like an interview where you interview your own character to find out as much as you can. X ends up in the book.

Mark P: Well, I, I appreciate it. ’cause I, I don’t think I went that far. There was a movie M Night Shalan movies called The Woman in the Water. I don’t know if you know that one.

Mark N: No.

Mark P: it wasn’t very good. I mean, to me. But the whole idea was that there was this monster and I think it was in the pool of an apartment building. And all of the characters were and they all had a unique. of sense about them. [00:18:00] One guy had a massive arm and his other arm was skinny. Somebody I think had tremendous. And anyway, at the end to save the woman, they all had to use their, like the guy with the one strong arm had to lift everybody. It was sort of like, wow, it’s a good thing all of these characters had their unique, so what I did is I sat down and said, okay, I’m going to need a character whose major thing is he’s gonna be first in the room. He’s the most eager. He’s not trying to upstage anybody. He just loves what he does.

He’s gonna work behind the scenes ’cause this is what he loves to do. Jack Sims. Then I’m going to want a female character who is going to go up because she loves to hunt. This is what What she does like a, boss, but she’s working for the FBI for a, a strong sense. She knows what she’s up against and she’s been preparing for this moment. Rhonda Perez. Then of course I have characters in there who are wasting time and we get rid of them pretty early. [00:19:00] So Robert has this aversion to authority. I talk about, well, the captain at the FBI is not gonna put up with that crap, and he’s gonna become this father figure who’s gonna help mold them into place. And then his best friend has own skills and his wife and so I said, I need characters who bring these sorts of things. So I looked at them from their skillset and what they could bring to the story and those, and that was how I characterized them. and then from there, I, I really just wanted it to work. There were a couple

A couple of, in the book where I would kind of change it or I would morph it. I would take it back and say, I know, and then go back to the beginning and add something to their skillset. I did that very much with Robert’s ex-wife, in the book because of the way the ending originally was in the first draft, which is not the way the book ends, as happens. I’ve learned yeah. books that the ending that you think I, because I wrote it to get to a spot. wrote it to [00:20:00] get, and I don’t know if you’re at the spot yet, ’cause you said you have 60 pages left. I don’t know if you’re at the spot yet. then what happened before and after that? I wasn’t sure what was going to happen because that spot isn’t the ending, but that was the spot where I wanted people to go, wow, okay.

That’s, that’s what this book is all about. The theme, the what, that’s what this book is trying to say. And then I’ll end it somehow. But then I realized now I can’t do that. And I had to go back and kind of change it. And that involved evolving these characters to get to those points.

Mark N: How did you know it was ready when you had done that? Like you had your first draft, you know, you wanted to send it to an editor for publishing, but that’s one of the hardest steps is when you have to decide, is this thing ready? Am I just changing words for the sake of changing words? And I think I’m making it better.

Maybe I’m not. When did you decide like, okay, this thing’s ready to be sent off? I’ve done everything I can.

Mark P: Yeah, that’s a great question because somebody said to me, when does a writer, sorry, when does a painter know that’s the last brush stroke?

Mark N: Mm-hmm.

Mark P: Oh boy. You know, that’s, that’s, that’s so [00:21:00] true. I had worked on it for, you know, the seven weeks and edited, I talked about Lead Child. His way is he’ll, he’ll write 1500 to 2000 words, and then before he begins the next day, he’ll go back and edit the previous day. few words here and there. It doesn’t work as a full edit, but as he says you know, it gets you back into the story, gives you a little bit of time to rework some of the language and then so that when you start, yeah, you’re right back where you were. So, I knew when I was done, it was a pretty good, and I worked on it for a couple of weeks. Then I hired an editor out of New York by the name of Ken Soff. I sent it to him and to what I think is a tremendous amount of money from somebody who didn’t have a lot of money. But I spent more than I wanted to because I knew it was good and I knew I wanted to rush it, which in hindsight, I probably didn’t do.

I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t suggest people do that.

Mark N: Okay, but.

Mark P: at this time, I’m, you know, 60 years old and thinking you only get so many shots. And I think this is a good book. I could have waited another year. I could have [00:22:00] waited four more months, but I really wanted to strike while the iron was hot on it. he read it in about a week and then started working on it. And I got impatient. It was probably the week before Labor Day, I had been working on the pitch package and all that stuff. And I emailed him and said, well, what do you think? ’cause I thought, if it’s garbage, he’ll tell me. And as I said, I put it in the acknowledgements he sent back.

If the ending hangs together, I think you have a winner here. So to hear a New York editor say that. Was not something I was prepared for. It was not something I ever would’ve told anybody he’s going to say. And to this day, I don’t know that it’s a winner, but again, as somebody who reads it, I have to trust him more than I trust myself.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: that gave me a lot of confidence moving forward. And then I bought in, I really bought in. So, I loved your Instagram that you did. Thank you. About the signature,

Mark N: Yeah. Loved it. Yeah.[00:23:00]

Mark P: because yeah, my query letter did a lot of that. And, and the rule state, I should never do that, but I so bought into the characters that the pitch package is a taunt,

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: the client.

And the killers are taunting you throughout the book so that, the pitch package is exactly what the book is going to sound like. They say, you know, if you’re writing a romance, you should have a pretty, wistful query letter. If you are doing a horror, it should be a little bit of the edge of your seat. Well, mine is very taunting. Very schemy. And so I got a lot of rejections as I expected, but what I was hoping to find is just that was one or two agents that said, I know what you’re doing here. And I understand that because, and I got a couple that asked four more pages and I’d never gotten it with the other books.

So I sort of knew I was on my way. But ultimately one said, I don’t know, an editor enough, who would want a book like this and fight for it. And somebody else said, not quite there, didn’t like the [00:24:00] ending. And then I got a handful of hybrid, publishers that said yes. So I pay half, they pay

Mark N: Okay.

Mark P: to stay traditional ’cause I knew I wanted to retire and I didn’t wanna spend any more money. Ken got all my money on this book. And then between the Lines Publishing came in, which is an independent publisher, small one out of Roseville, Minnesota, and they’ve been great to work with. And away it went. So all of that was I’ve gotta buy into everything. so it isn’t me. The whole book is the client’s taunting 12, this 12 month scheme and why they would do it. you’re about to find out, and maybe you have some ideas, and because it is, as I tell, as I put in the pitch package, you know, the who is, what you’re gonna get to.

But the why is what’s gonna keep you up at night when you’re done with the book.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: ripped from the headlines today. I was shocked with how the world is evolving and I, a [00:25:00] friend of mine asked me if I was a time traveler when I wrote it two years ago, how’d you know that the world is gonna start feeling this way about the rich? I said, well, it’s always felt this way that they

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: the steps and put take matters in their own hands. Couldn’t have guessed that.

Mark N: Yeah,

Mark P: out, this was never meant to be a manual on how to do it. It was always meant to be a warning and it’s just so strange how it’s playing out now in the headlines around the world.

Mark N: yeah, definitely.

Mark P: Mm-hmm.

Mark N: I love that you say you had to really believe in it. ’cause I think that’s very true. How did you go about believing in it? Because there are so many steps along the way that could almost crush a writer when they want to believe in it. You’ve done very well in that you got an editor fairly quickly, or someone picked it up fairly quickly.

But prior to that, like how did you go from, even this book is done to I believe in this book, or was it just the editor and his feedback that just sparked that motivation and then you ran with it?

Mark P: Well, as, as [00:26:00] you know, on page 82 of the book I tip the cap A of the Krista, come right out and

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: And, uh, you know, in some of the books that inspired this plot because they sort of run along. And I, and I think because I’m, I was very much grounded in reading those, we all talk about if you want to ever become, a good writer, and I don’t profess to be one, but if you ever want to be one, you have to be a prolific reader. And there were plots that I absolutely loved. There are authors I absolutely love and I, they are must read authors for me. But to be completely honest and not terribly I was growing a little tired these slow burn domestic thrillers. Not that I don’t like them, but there’s a lot. And they were, and I won’t say they all sound the same, ’cause then I sound like my dad when the Beatles came out. Right. But I, I [00:27:00] think the point is, you begin to say, well, no, I know where this is going. I may not be right, but there’s nothing there that can surprise me anymore. and they’re sort of like, oh, I didn’t guess that, but here we are. And it was well written and I liked it, and then I’ll pick up another one. And so I think when I was sitting on the train, which really made me commit is I wanna write something not just totally different ’cause that’s dangerous. ’cause people want what people want.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: the same, only different. So I thought if I can ground it in the love that I had of Agatha Christie’s books Jeffrey Deaver’s books, I sort of had the plot of an Agatha Christie, but the pace of a Jeffrey Dever and then let’s add the geography of a Dan Brown. let’s like have a wide landscape with really tough, thrilling details. But the plotting that aga, the Christie had, I thought I can really chew on that because I love all three [00:28:00] of those. So I got in the mud on those and I sat in it and I wrote it and I believed in it. And I didn’t, didn’t get away from it. When, when people said, nah, don’t know. I don’t think I want to pick this up, or it’s not enough for me, or, no, it didn’t really grab my attention.

And I would think, oh boy, if I, if this one doesn’t grab your attention. But all of these other domestic thrillers that were starting to bore me or start to think were so predictable, you know, why did you grab that? Do I, does everybody have to write like that? And I thought, no, I’m going to, I’m going to stick in because I don’t think I can write those. I really wanted to write these. And so I think that made it easier for me to buy in because I

Okay.

I was doing

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: And didn’t want to give that up. And again, is it for everybody? No . Is it gonna be a bestseller? Don’t think so. Again, that wasn’t the point. The point was to say, this is a different book, because I can’t write those with any kind of conviction [00:29:00] because to me it was just like, yeah, I enjoyed it, but I, it’s like the last 10 that I just read. What I really want is something that I can really get my teeth into, and that’s why I wrote this one and believe in it so much.

Mark N: that was, That was very plot driven, would you say you’re more of a plot driven writer, then character, where you build the plot first. What attracted me a lot to this book right from the get go oh, I liked it all. I could preface that by saying I liked it all, but the character of Robert h is, is what got me into it right away.

And I loved when he’s with the FBI and he’s cocky, and then he’s put in his place, which is all very early in the book, so it’s not a spoiler. And, yeah. And I love that about him like I do. I, and then I got right into him, and from there I bought into the plot and the rest of the book.

Mark P: I think, I started with plot. No, you’re right. One of the things that I really wanted to do, which I wasn’t seeing a lot of, and that is character arcs and thrillers and mysteries. So if we go back to [00:30:00] egg and Christie for example, Ms. Marble doesn’t change her. GU wrote doesn’t change. They are those characters and we want those characters and we like it. But I thought I really wanted to have a character arc that would make you want to cheer for him or her cheer for all of them. As I say, none of them are the same character at the end of the book as they were at the beginning.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: it make it more challenging? Yeah, it does. Is Lincoln rhyme just to borrow or, you know, Jack reacher of these, these characters and thrillers, do they change every book?

I don’t think they do. Are the authors bad enough for doing it? No, not at all. But my difference was, is I really wanted to bring somebody to see if you could like him because of what he puts himself through, how he changes at the end, which we’ll see. You’re not quite all the way there and leads itself into the next book for those that survived this one, and you begin to anticipate, oh, as he’s grown, like the Hunger Games, of course, I’ll how you like Cat so much the way they grow throughout it.

And [00:31:00] I wasn’t seeing a lot of that in thrillers. So I think I’m plot driven. I’m very sympathetic to putting the characters in that plot and giving them agency so that they can become stronger people that you would want to cheer for along the way, not just to survive, but to continue to grow, to make mistakes, to suffer with them when they make the mistake and to see how they can grow because of it. That’s real police work. James Patterson talks about that, 60% of the police work, you should be wrong because. what happens. That’s what investigative means. You try this, you get these clues, you check that out. Nope. You go interview these people. Nope, that isn’t right. Oh, but then I found this out.

And so you can’t Sherlock Holmes it where they’re right all the time, but you, you should want to cheer with him when he is wrong. That he doesn’t give up. He wants to learn.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: around him take what information he can give and his, and, and, and I say it a few times in there just for plausibility. Look guys I don’t know what I’m doing, but I see [00:32:00] this and I think it’s this so how would we put that into the investigation? How would you ask or investigate that if I think this is going on? So the way they all try and put the whole thing together. And, and maybe you’re yelling at the pages because of course as a reader, you know far more what’s going on in the plot than any of the characters because you know everything until you don’t.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: and that’s when, and that’s when the twist start. And I was talking at a library about that you have a dog, for example. It’s like when you’re walking with your dog and then you stop and the dog keeps going, well, that’s what I do in the book. And then you kind of stop and go, wait a minute, how did I get here?

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: Thought we were, and then you realize, oh, you stopped giving me information I did, and I, let’s let you go with it. And then that’s what, because to me, the best twist are the ones where readers fool themselves know, I don’t have to lie or bury or ignore or, you know, almost become an unreliable narrative.

I’ll just give you all the information and, and [00:33:00] let the characters think they know what’s going on. And then you can go, oh, no, no, no, I, I know where we’re going with this. And that’s like, I wasn’t close at all, or I wasn’t right. Where did I miss that? And you realize, no, I missed that because I assumed that I knew what everything that was going on.

And there’s a point of the book at which that stops, and now you’ve gotta figure it out for yourself.

Mark N: Yeah. How do you want a reader to feel when they’re done? When they finally put this book down, what’s that final feeling you want them to have?

Mark P: As I said, the, when Jeffrey Deaver talked about the biggest theme it could and I don’t wanna give away the theme ’cause I think that it’s a little bit of a spoiler, I think I, without doing that, let’s say this, like the reader to feel like I’ve either given them or challenged them to look at their worldview. That would somebody go to the extent of killing 12 people in 12 months over 12 cities so that they could hide what they’re doing and [00:34:00] not wanna take credit for it. And then when you find out what links the victims. Why they chose to do it that way, why they had to do it that way the things that you discover about the victims along the way, the things that Robert Hann discovers about himself along the way, and how none of the characters are the same based on the explosive ending. it changes the way we look at how we structure society and the way we look at our resources and the way we treat each other. Yeah, it’s pie in the sky. It’s, it’s big. again, it’s not meant to be a mission impossible where it’s like pushes the plausibility and I can’t believe he’s survived the second to go. We’ve figured it all out. Now what? Now that we know what happened and it’s over, what are we gonna do to make sure this doesn’t happen again? It isn’t just, what would I do if I was in that? Robert, Hannah talks about it, for example, when he begin to think of himself. What [00:35:00] if, what if the killer came after me? What does that say about me? And that’s, I think, what I want the reader to begin to see that it’s, a situation born of society and characters, as you mentioned, because it wouldn’t have happened if they weren’t the characters that they were and come away thinking a little bit above the worldview and the way things are.

Mark N: I love that. Thank you. Well, I’m looking forward to that explosive ending and feeling those feelings. I’m gonna be finishing it tonight, so I’ll let you know.

Mark P: Excellent.

Mark N: Alright, so a couple of quick wrap up questions. What advice would you give someone who just published their first or second book? So they’ve, they’ve gone that step, what advice would you give them?

Mark P: Get into book signings. Now I have a radio background, so I’m not afraid to do public speaking, to sit there and meet people and sign books. My daughter, she mentioned she lived in, she lives in Toronto. she contacted me when the book came out she said, dad, here’s the [00:36:00] contact for Indigo at the Eaton Center. I was like, whoa. So I reached out and they said, sure, we’ll order 15 books and let’s do a book sign. So do them ask and you shall receive. It is amazing if you just ask an indigo near you, a private bookstore near you, the library, just to do a quick talk if you think you can do that stuff in public.

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: amazing how many people do wanna meet authors. So I would say get yourself out there. I like social media. I don’t think it’s the be all and end all. Just like, you do this podcast and you’re on all platforms, that’s more important than trying to just get a huge following or buy a huge following

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: media. I think there’s still a lot of room for meeting readers. Gives me a chance to steal some names for another book. But then there’s, because there’s nothing like that feedback. As I mentioned, I did a [00:37:00] library talk for 10 people. drove half an hour. a small library, just up on Highway seven down from Ottawa.

Near 10 people were there and I loved it. And one of the people there had read the book from the library, so you know, oh well, and I didn’t get any money off that didn’t care. She loved the book and immediately went looking to see what else I have written. And so, oh, well that was just his first book and then was shocked when she saw that I was going to be coming into the library to do a talk. So the things I said, well, you know, well, what. What did you like, which of which of the murders was your favorite? Because that tells me a little bit about the way this reader liked the book, the way it was plotted. Did you find that one just so shocking? Underhanded would, did you hate that character The moment, like, so you get a chance to get all kinds of feedback on the plot and the characters as you say. And that may not teach you a lot about writing, but the two aspects of writing are writing and story, so maybe you can become a better writer, but the things you get back in [00:38:00] feedback can probably create better stories down. It’s like, okay, they’re really like these kinds of characters. I’ll make sure and really double down on those on the next book.

So yeah, so I would say do book signings and get out there and get a chance to meet people and I think always be writing sometimes, John Grisham was telling the story. I saw it the other week where when a Time For Kill had been picked up many years ago, his first book. He finally got an agent and the next day he called his agent, and the agent said, you are not gonna call me every day. Because they thought, oh, well I thought I, did you sell it yet? Is it gonna be published yet? Look, this is not how this work. So get out there and write another book. ’cause it, it’s gonna make you a better writer when the editing comes along. Kills some time. So yeah, once you’re published, and I have met a wonderful writer that I met at a festival.

It’s her only book and she can’t even conceive of trying to do a second book. And so I thought, good for you. You’re Harper Lee. Until they started dragging out all of her manuscripts, she had only written to Kill a Mockingbird for 60 years until they started dragging out some old [00:39:00] scripts. But, if you can stay busy and work on other projects, I think it just makes you a better writer and

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: a lot. yeah, I’d say get out there with it. Be proud of your book. ’cause you know, mark, you know, the figures over time, how many percentage of people who say they’re gonna write a book, the percentage of people who start writing a book, and the percentage of people who finish writing a book, and then the minuscule number who managed to get it, published,

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: publishing, which costs a lot of money, and there’s a viable path that takes so much skill because you are everything.

You are designing the cover, you are editing, you are promoting and, even though I have a radio background, I didn’t feel confident I could do that. So I did the traditional route because I wanted the experts and part of it was my age. I don’t have a lot of time left to spend a lot of time and money trying to learn all of that. So I defer to the experts that way and was lucky enough to land a small, wonderful publisher. I don’t know what would’ve happened if that hadn’t happened. We certainly wouldn’t [00:40:00] be talking. And the other three manuscripts I’ve written, I don’t know would’ve happened to them, but there they are.

So I’m, I’m very happy with the way it worked.

Mark N: Yeah, well it’s a deserving book of having caught that.

Mark P: It. Yeah.

Mark N: where can listeners find your book and hear more about you?

Mark P: Well, for the most part, it’s available. As I say, it’s a small publisher, so, if you’re listening in the United States, it’s not on shelves at Barnes and Noble, but you can order it through there. You can order it through Amazon Canada. You can order it through Indigo if you’re here in the qui region.

In Belleville, they told me, they gave me a number. I think I’ve sold 134 copies in my hometown, which about 130 more than I deserve. Part of it was, I did morning show radio here for 25 years, so everybody knew I left to write this darn book. so a lot of people came out to books on it just to say hi and be supportive. The ebook is also available on Amazon. It’s available on Kindle. It’s available on Cobo. And because of my radio [00:41:00] background, if you haven’t guessed, yes, I recorded the audio book. So I went out and bought all of the equipment that I need to create a home studio. That was a wonderful experience because I had to learn and I had to learn reading, part storytelling,

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: To learn what the echo and how do you down the sound and is this pit still my daughter in Toronto? Of course, when she would commute, I would record three episodes or three chapters. Then I’d email and she’d listen on the way home. Still too tinny. I think you’re going too fast. That’s a horrible accent. Don’t do accent. So until we got to the end and she said, no, okay, this is a good pace.

Okay, you figured out the technology. Now that sounds really good. And I would put it into the Audible website where they check these sorts of things and they said, no issues. This is perfect. This. So it’s like, okay. Then I went back and redid the whole darn thing again.

Mark N: Wow.

Mark P: that everything could be perfect. [00:42:00] So Audible has, and I’ve sold 49 audio books, that’s been fun as well. But, yeah, so, and all the major outlets online and some selected Indigos across, there’s one left in London, there’s two at Green Hills in Toronto. Some at Eden Center. They, they’ve kept stocking it ’cause it keeps selling there, thank heavens. And and then mostly, mostly online.

Mark N: All right. Well, thank you so much. This has been great. I’ve really enjoyed hearing this story. I have probably another 40 questions prepared for you that we just ran out of time. It’s just, it’s been a great conversation. I really appreciate it. If you don’t mind taking a few more minutes of your time for the after we record this main episode for our Patreon members, I’d really appreciate it.

Mark P: And if you enjoy it, my follow up echos of Death will be out in the summer, but my next is a standalone called with my little eye, a curious widow, a shy prowler, and the wrong Window, coming out in, early spring. So I’ll say first week of April, [00:43:00] give or take. And that is a story that came to me from our retiring police chief who was on the radio show, I was looking for a character to go with my widow, and he gave me the prowler and away this book came.

So it’s funny where you get it when you meet people, you talk to people, you get the craziest ideas for

Mark N: Yeah.

Mark P: and I had a lot of crazy ideas. So look for that. Mark. I greatly appreciate, again, not only your support for me, but for all authors, for writing and for, thrillers, because I know Thriller readers come to this genre as critical readers. We don’t. You can buy a Carly fortune and you wanna be swooned, but many people pick up a thriller saying, well, you better fool me. You better thrill me. You

Mark N: yeah.

Mark P: the goods. So it’s a more challenging genre to write in to become successful in, and certainly to get your name out to. And I am

Mark N: yeah.

Mark P: so grateful that you gave me this opportunity.

Thank you.

Mark N: Oh, I’m happy to. Thank you.