Mark: it felt kind of built into this one that there was a question of, of likability at times, but then relatability came in because you didn’t like something they said or did, and then all of a sudden you understood why they did it.

Ava: I thought how interesting to see things from different people’s perspective, like the different sisters’ perspective, and that it doesn’t feel unlikable or you feel like you can’t relate to it, and then when you get the deeper picture, it is something you can relate to where you understand where they’re coming from.

For me, just part of trying to make them feel like real characters and real people, because sometimes that can be a little bit missing from the thriller genre. And I think that just makes it more compelling really when there’s layers of their personality or what they’re doing and their motivations.

Mark: Welcome to the Thriller Writer Lab, where every thriller goes under the microscope, one book at a time. I’m your host, Mark Nadon, and this is where best-selling, award-winning, and emerging thriller authors share the craft, research, and real-world experiences that power today’s most gripping stories.

Joining me today is Ava Roberts, author of the domestic thriller, “The Summer House Murder.” Ava, thank you so much for being here today

Ava: Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here

Mark: And I have your book with me here. I was just putting up on camera, “The Summer House Murder.” I love the cover, by the way. Very,

Ava: Beautiful. Thank you. I love it too

Mark: So I’m really excited about this. I really enjoyed this book, um, and I know you’re a clinical psychologist, so I’m very curious about how that all applies to these characters and all the decisions that you made. But before we get into that, let’s jump into the pitch. So pitch me the book, “The Summer House Murder.”

Ava: So The Summer House Murder starts at a beautiful idyllic lake house. Three sisters, Esme, Piper, and Regina, have to go every summer in August. It’s a requirement of their inheritance that they go for two weeks, and the sisters don’t get along. They wouldn’t normally go on a vacation together. And, uh, Esme is the oldest sister.

She’s sort of judgmental and tries to be the perfect sister, and she’s reeling from finding out that her husband had an affair. And the middle sister, Piper, is a new mom, and she’s got a lot of anxiety, and she’s got a lot of self-doubt, and being back at the summer house brings up a lot of, you know, memories for her and, and old feelings.

And then Regina is the youngest sister. She’s kind of, um, a rule breaker and sarcastic, and she’s funny, and she has her own really big secret that she’s hiding that could ruin everything for her. So a- the sisters come together, and they a- they all have their own issues going on, and it’s kind of a pressure cooker in the house.

And by the second night, they get into a huge fight, and, uh, they think, you know, “Okay, in the morning we’ll, we’ll make up. We go our separate ways.” But in the morning, they wake up, and there’s a body in the lake. And as the police investigate, what we find out is that the sisters are all tied to the body, and all of their secrets and lies and betrayal all starts to come out, and we have to figure out which sister is responsible for this body in the lake.

Mark: Awesome. Love it. So three sisters, three husbands, a mess of family history. Where did all this come from? Where did the idea start?

Ava: The idea started, I knew that I wanted it to be set, uh, in a family vacation in some place remote where they couldn’t escape and couldn’t get away, and just having been on many family vacations, I just thought this is not something I had seen in an idea for a book before, and I thought it would be something a lot of people could relate to and just a really good setting.

And the three sisters, their personalities just sort of came to me, very different and distinct individuals, and that part really was just an organic sort of thinking about who they were and their characters and letting them develop.

Mark: What kind of challenges did this story present for you?

Ava: Challenges were, um, I think in any story, the challenge is always just to, I want it to be a, a combination of really twisty and fast-paced and interesting, but I also want it to feel like you’re exploring real relationships of, like, real people and real sisters with real problems. So I try and balance making it a thriller that’s gonna be really exciting and interesting with something that feels like you can relate to it, and that there’s a real story there, um, and that people can kind of see themselves in the sisters, in, in each of them, or one of them sometimes more than the other

Mark: Were there moments where you’re writing this book where you really had to, like, do a lot of research or you felt like something wasn’t working that you struggled with because of what you knew you needed to set up?

Ava: That’s a good question. I don’t know that I had to do research per se. Sometimes I had to look up the, um, you know, the, the type of trees and things like that ’cause I wanna get the details right. But other than that, I think in terms of making sure something’s working, I just, I write what I think is gonna happen in the moment based on sort of my intuition and what feels right.

And then if I go back and it doesn’t feel right, I’ll kind of change it. But there’s nothing that really stands out in terms of that I got stuck on. I think in every point when you’re writing, sometimes you just need to take a break and come back to it, but there was no point where I thought, you know, oh, this is just completely not working, you know?

Mark: Okay, so at a, at a higher level then, do you, are, do you outline the book or do you write as you go?

Ava: So I, I have tried to outline before, and it’s just, it doesn’t work. It’s not how my brain works. Um, I always start with the idea. Like I know, okay, this is what I want the story to be about in general, um, and I know where I want it to end, meaning I knew that there was a couple of twists that I hadn’t seen before, and I wanted the story to include those twists because I thought, “Okay, this will be a really good broad idea.”

But in terms of how I get there, um, you know, I really just write, and I just have to sit down, and I sort of see it as I’m writing it as a movie. And, and when I get it out, usually the next chapter comes to me then. So as hard as I’ve tried to do outlines, because that seems to make more sense logically, but that’s just, it’s just not the way it works.

And, um, and it makes it interesting for me as an author because then I get interested when I sit down to write. I wanna know what’s gonna happen too. I really don’t always know. And, um, it always comes together. You know, I write something and I’m not sure why, or it just sort of is there, and then four chapters later, I- it- I tie it in and it comes together as, “Oh, well, that’s why that was there.”

Um, and it’s not even intentional. It’s sort of like a subconscious process that happens

Mark: And this is your seventh book, right? You have a, a Thistle, the Thistle Thrillers, I think. You have four books in

Ava: Uh-huh. The, the, uh, that one is three books, so this is my sixth one. Uh, sixth book, yep. And then, um, there’s also Juniper Isle and Vanishing Neighbor that are two standalones also

Mark: And is your approach the same with every book, or have you changed your approach as you came to write this one?

Ava: It’s really been the same for every one. , The approaches that I always write the be- you know, the beginning what I think will be kind of the blurb, and then I try to outline it, and then I can’t, and I say, “Okay, I can’t, I can’t do the outline. It’s not working.” And then I say, “Well, I think I’m just gonna have to write it.”

So that it really happens almost the same way every time, and I’ve had to learn to just say, you know, “Go ahead and just write the book, and just let the words come out and see,” you know? And, um, and I, I really do enjoy the process.

Mark: Do you find as you’re out and about that you’re thinking about scenes to come and scenes that you’ve written? Or is it really when you sit down to write that it all comes to life for you because it’s like your place to focus on it?

Ava: Yeah. I, definitely I think about it. It’s there in the back of my mind. So when I’ve just written a scene, and then I go and I have some quiet time, like if I’m in the car or walking the dog, I really have to have some quiet, and then it comes to me. And sometimes it’s when I’m trying to fall asleep, or in the middle of the night I’ll wake up and the idea’s there, and I have to make sure that I can jot it down before I lose it.

But in terms of how it will play out, I usually have, like, the, the general idea comes, like I know what I want to happen, but then when I actually write it, it’s always a little bit different, you know, how it comes out versus the idea. But yeah, definitely when I’m in writing mode, it’s, it’s everywhere I go.

It’s like, it’s always in the back of my mind, and it’s sometimes when I’m not expecting it that the idea is there. Um, and I get very excited when that happens.

Mark: Do you have big takeaways as you’re writing or, or at the end or not at all? Because I wonder if when people put this book down, like what is it is that you think they will take away from it, and whether you see that going into it with your– the way you write, sort of just going as you, as you feel it out, uh, versus like an outline where sometimes those, you know, they become preachy. Not, not that I mean every book is, is its own process, but it can become preachy at times where you feel like the theme is being, you know, kinda shoved down your throat in some books.

Ava: It’s being really, really hammered in there. Yeah, y- I think as a theme, if I, I try to usually start with an emotion that I think is really interesting or I think is relative or it’s gonna be something that people relate to in the main characters. So it might be kind of a theme of like jealousy in this one, with sort of jealousy and envy and to some extent pride and greed.

So I have these sort of emotions as the out, the sort of, um, main theme, but I don’t have an intention in what I want people to feel about that, other than let’s explore what happens when these people are struggling with those feelings or emotions, and let’s see what happens when they make decisions based on those emotions.

And then you get to kinda decide how you feel about it. It’s not my place to tell the reader, how to feel. And that’s what’s interesting is people have such different experiences reading the book, especially this one, The Summer House Murder. People relate differently to the different characters and like some who others don’t like. So it’s, it’s not the same necessarily for each person.

Mark: Yeah, it feels, it felt kind of built into this one that there was a question of, of likability at times, but then relatability came in because you didn’t like something they said or did, and then all of a sudden you understood why they did it. How, how do you approach that when you’re writing these characters and you’re like, well, you must know that people are probably… Well, everyone’s different, but there are things like I know what I’m writing that, that make people unlikable. Like Greg is not gonna be likable ’cause he’s the one that had the affair, we assume. Like how do, how do you, uh, approach all these characters and you’re, and you’re trying to write it and you’re thinking, “Okay, these are the negative things, but here’s why, and then this is what I need my reader to feel so that they can, you know, relate to the story and actually get into it and care about these people,” rather than just like, “I don’t care about these people at all, and I don’t care what happens to them.”

Ava: Exactly. Well, that’s, what you just described is really one of the intentions that I, I do, I did have, especially with this book, is I thought how interesting to see things from different people’s perspective, like the different sisters’ perspective, and that it doesn’t feel unlikable or you feel like you can’t relate to it, and then when you get the deeper picture, it is something you can relate to where you understand where they’re coming from.

And I, I don’t know why I find that interesting, but I just do, and I, I did have that intention without maybe thinking about it over… You know, when you described it, I thought that was exactly what I was trying to do. So, um, I think that that’s, for me, just part of trying to make them feel like real characters and real people, because sometimes that can be a little bit missing from, you know, the thriller genre.

And I think that just makes it more compelling really when there’s layers of their personality or what they’re doing and their motivations.

Mark: Yeah. How do you keep track of it? Do you have like a family tree of who’s who and, and who they’re related to and their, and their kind of strengths and weaknesses, I guess we could say?

Ava: You know, I don’t do that because I figure if I can’t keep track of it, if I need a family tree, then the reader is gonna need a family tree, and I don’t want it to be, I don’t want it to be hard for people to follow. So I have to make the characters easy for myself to remember, and then write about it in a way that the reader’s gonna remember it so that we’re all on the same page, ’cause I don’t want people to feel like they’re lost or they’re trying to figure out, “Wait, who is this?”

So even with, um, with Paul and Piper and their son with all the P names, I kind of did that intentionally, both as a personality thing, but also just to, to help, um, keep their name.

Mark: Yeah, I love the name tricks.

I’ve heard some name tricks. I had, uh, oh, who is it? Oh, Susan Walter was on the show. She wrote, uh, what is it? “Murder at 30,000 Feet.” And she, she talked about some of her, her naming tricks and things that she uses. I thought it was very, a lot of fun.

Ava: Oh. Oh, fun. Yeah, definitely. So, and I think making them different enough that the characters, you can remember them based on their personality, and then kind of like reminding the reader what, you know, what that is that makes them unique and different.

Mark: Yeah.

Ava: Yeah.

Mark: That’s fascinating that you can keep that in your mind. I have such a terrible time doing that myself. If I had to rely on my memory, the poor reader, uh, they would be lost.

Ava: I, um, yeah, when I’m in it, for some reason I have sort of this hawk-like memory for, for those details. I don’t have to write them down too much. But, um, but again, I try to keep it fairly simple

Mark: So when you’re done this– when you finish this book now looking back, is there anything you can, you think of that you hope people take away from this story other than the entertainment?

Ava: So I think that, I think if it makes you think about your own life and your own relationships, that’s always an interesting takeaway that, you know, hopefully it can affect you and make me think about things differently in your own life and your own relationships, and hopefully for the better. But yeah, I think entertainment is definitely the number one, you know, purpose of it, is to be entertaining and fun, and thrilling obviously.

Kind of it’s, it’s a dark story, but I do think that I, I just want people to think a little bit ’cause I think, um, sometimes in thrillers, again, you don’t want it to feel like it’s completely just a popcorn thriller that’s totally surface level. So I like to have people have something to contemplate a little bit.

You know, like what would I have done differently? Or does this remind me of my sisters? Or oh, you know, is this like my parents? Was I labeled like this? You know? So the… I always think that’s interesting to have takeaway.

Mark: Yeah. In the acknowledgments, you thank your husband for his support, and you thank Carol Willis for being an early reader and reading the first several chapters to encourage and offer suggestions. This is your wording that I’m taking from it. Can you talk about what that process was like? And I have– I found that really interesting when I read it, because I know when I write a book, like first draft, nobody’s reading.

Second draft, nobody’s reading. It’s the third draft that I’ll actually let my, what I call the beta readers, but my very early readers, people I trust, actually get to read some of it. So you giving a few chapters to someone early on by the sounds of, of this is, was fascinating to me, so I’d love to hear more about that.

Ava: Yeah, I was the same way. The first two or three books, I didn’t let anybody see it, and I don’t, I, I don’t really, as funny as it sounds, I still don’t like to think about too much people reading it because it’s just so, it’s so personal that I feel like I like to write it and that I want it to be out there, but I don’t really wanna think about anyone reading my words.

So, um, I think we… Lots of authors feel that way. But yeah, so I definitely never sent anything to people, initially. But then, I got to know Carol and, um, there was another author that we were working with and just kind of talking about being on submission with ano- another book. And, um, I forget how, it kind of happened just naturally.

We talked about maybe sharing a few chapters, because I had heard from other authors that they, they do that, and I thought, you know, let’s, let’s try this out. And there was a couple questions I wanted to work out. I can’t remember what it was. Oh, I think I just wanted to know if it was easy enough, if the sisters were distinct enough, ’cause like we were talking about earlier, like, can you keep them straight?

There’s three of them. So I said, “Okay, just give me feedback kind of specifically on that, but I’m curious anything else, too.” And, um, yeah, Carol had great feedback. She had a couple of comments that really helped me figure out, okay, this would be a really interesting direction to go. And so yeah, I’m very thankful that I did that.

But it’s gotta be somebody that you, that you really trust and that you really, you know, feel like, okay, this person is gonna be super helpful.

Mark: Do you feel yourself moving in that, in that direction again, like giving someone something, a little early snippet?

Ava: Oh, I just did. I just did. And I love it. It happened again. I was like, “This is amazing. If only I had had this my first, my first several books.” Um, yeah, I g- I gave it to another author friend who, you know, she’s a, a best-selling author, and she just gave me s- part of it was just some confirmation that she was, she really was liking it, and it was interesting, and then she had just a couple details that she suggested.

Um, and it was just… I, I… It gave me an idea for, okay, maybe I’ll include this later in the book, ’cause there’s a character that’s really unlikable, and, um, she felt it too. So it was nice to know that I was coming across. ‘Cause sometimes it’s… You, you wanna be subtle, but you don’t wanna hit people over the head. Like, it’s, it’s kind of a, a fine line for making somebody unlikable villain.

Mark: That inspires me. Maybe I’ll consider doing that in the next book that I start.

Ava: Maybe so. What’s the worst that can happen, right?

Mark: Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I always– The worst to me would be if someone is saying like, “Oh, I want it to go– I think it should go in this direction.” It’s like that feedback that you fear of like this isn’t working or, you know, it’s not doing very good. Yet so many authors, like there are famous authors who have stories like that, that they shared their books and had terrible feedback but then wrote it anyway and then it became like one of the greatest novels of…

Ava: How

Mark: You know what I mean? So it’s one of those things where y- I guess it comes with trust, right? You have to trust who it is that is giving you the feedback and

Ava: Yes. Yes. And I guess, I mean, if that were really the feedback, I guess I would wanna know they thought it wasn’t working or why. And then yes, you get to decide, like, okay, well, do I agree with this or not? Yeah, so that’s interesting. But I doubt you would get that feedback. That would be my suspicion, you

Mark: Well, well, you know what? In my last book, I had a bunch of beta readers, and you know, with beta readers, when you get enough of them, they all give different feedback, and that was one of the challenges. One of the challenges was trying to figure out what I want to change for the next draft because it’s so– there are so many different people giving different advice,

Ava: Different. Right. Well, and that’s where I don’t always do as many beta readers, because I do feel like once I like a story, I’m pretty set in it. And it’s not that I don’t care what other people think, it’s that I know that, like you said, they’re gonna have so many different thoughts and feelings that it’s almost, you can’t please everyone.

So at this point, if the book is written, I like it, I, I more use the beta readers to say, “Okay, was something unclear? Was there an inconsistency? Like, was, is there, you know, a hole that I need to fill?” But not really to change what I think should happen. That happens more, you know, with my editor. If there’s something that my editor is saying, “Okay, this needs to change,” or, “I think this part would be better served,” then I’ll move things around.

But, um, you kind of have to be pretty selective about what you’re gonna change, I think. Yeah.

Mark: So this book has a, a story that feels like, , almost generational trauma, uh, without giving away… I don’t wanna give away spoilers or anything, so I’ll be very vague about it. Do you believe even without the knowledge of events, people find themselves in those kinds of situations?

Ava: I mean, I think, I think it definitely is true because you can’t, you know, you can’t control your parents and your upbringing and what they bring into being parents, and it’s almost inevitable that they’re gonna bring in their family history and trauma. And, you know, in the case with these three sisters, what happened when they were younger, they didn’t have any control of it. They were part of it, but, you know, of course, that’s gonna sort of bleed into the rest of their lives, you know?

Mark: Yeah. Do you find with this story, were there any moments that hit you personally where you wrote them and it felt like this was like a piece of me on the page or a piece of something I know or like was close to me?

Ava: Yeah, I think almost a- all three of the sisters I can relate to in some different way, ’cause they’re so different, but each of them I feel like, “Okay, I felt like that before.” And I think, and even with Alexis too, I mean, I think that I would never wanna write a book or a character that I couldn’t relate to. I think what makes it interesting is it’s obviously things that you can relate to, but then in a book you make it a thriller. It’s, like, larger than life. It’s things, situations I’ve never been in, and they’re much more, you know, they’re, they’re more extreme. But, um, yeah. But I, I hope that everybody can relate to kind of each of the, each of the characters and each of the relationships they have with their sisters and their husbands and their kids even, and their mom. So there’s a lot, a lot of different relationships in there.

Mark: Do you think being a psychologist has impacted the way you write books?

Ava: I definitely think it is. Like, people will sometime… I remember my first writing teacher, James Thayer, he has a podcast too, an amazing podcast on writing, and he, um, he has a podcast now. Back then at University of Washington, it was just, it was a class I took, and he said, you know, I can tell…

Something about, he could tell that I was a psychologist or it came through in my writing, and I’ve definitely had that feedback before. Um, just because I can’t help but, uh, you know, I wanna have, you know, some of a deeper understanding or meaning to what’s going on, and kind of give insight into what the character’s going through

Mark: Are you still practicing now?

Ava: I’m not practicing anymore, no. I, um, I haven’t been for probably for quite a while now. When I had my second child and we moved, and I had written my first book, and I got some really good feedback from… I sent it to Writer’s House, and, Al Zuckerman, he called me and he said, you know, he, he had an R&R.

He wanted to give me some feedback, um, for The Vanishing Neighbor. And he said, “I think you can make a living on writing,” and it was really encouraging. And, um, I, I didn’t end up working with him ’cause he retired shortly thereafter, but I always really appreciated that he took the time to talk with me and be so encouraging.

And, um, so it sort of all fell into place where I did not practice anymore, um, and I wanted to really focus on being a mom and being a, an author. That was always what I wanted to do. It was just a matter of timing and I had taken, you know, a writing class like 10 years before, and I was always writing little things here and there, but I, I finally had sat down to write, you know, my full book, and that’s when I thought, Okay, I’m gonna keep, I’m gonna keep doing this.

Mark: That’s awesome. That’s the dream, right? That we’re all hoping to, to get to full-time author dream. So with, with the family and how do you carve out time for writing? What does your day-to-day look like?

Ava: Well, my youngest is finally now in school full time, but it used to be… I mean, I wrote books I when, you know, during nap time, during, you know, after they would go to bed at night. I just kind of found time, or sometimes I would have my, um, you know, my laptop with me at, you know, school eve- or not school events, but like after school activities and things like that.

So I, I would just find the time and, and you really, uh, just get good at sort of carving out the time, and I’m a pretty fast writer in terms of when I sit down to write, I’m able to, you know, produce the words. So, um, but now that my youngest is in kindergarten, he- they’re, they’re in school, and so I really have a, a lot of time to, to write.

Mark: Nice.

Ava: Yeah

Mark: Do you, did you find for this book you write like, do you write by time? Do you write by words or

Ava: Yeah, I tr- yeah, sometimes I get on a roll, but mostly I try to have a goal of, it used to be 1,000 words, and if I’m really trying to, if I have a deadline or if I’m really, ambitious, I can do 1,500, sometimes 2,000, has worked. And I really do like writing more words because I feel like you can kind of get into it and get into your flow.

But realistically, even if if I’m tight on time, even if I can get 600 or 700 words, I say, “Okay, that’s gonna be my goal for today.” But I always try and write out what my number goal is, and I, I write down the number goal before I start, and that way I know what it is be- as I go into it, and I can see if I’ve made that.

Mark: Wow. That’s like not even outlining your goal for the day. You just go in with a number and, and go to hit that number. I love that

Ava: I do. Yeah, I do. I hit that number because then, I feel like otherwise I- I- I’m … Now I’m curious how other people do it. I mean, I, I wouldn’t know how else to do it. Do other people have like, “I wanna finish this scene,” or, “I wanna finish this idea”?

Mark: I do by time, so I have a timer that I set. So I’ll write for at least an hour and a half, and I try and end mid-scene or mid-action so that when I come back the next day, I’m kicking off an action ’cause I don’t wanna end at the end of a chapter and then have to think about, start the day thinking about how, what am I gonna talk about now in the next chapter kind of thing.

Ava: Yeah.

Mark: It in the middle. I try to leave it in the middle of action, but I do it by time, so.

Ava: Oh, so you help yourself by leaving it in the middle where it’s an easy place to start, and you give yourself a time. I mean, I always have, like, time blocked out. Like, I know, like, okay, I have these three hours, or I have these four hours, or I have one hour. But then, Okay, interesting. Yeah

Mark: Yeah. I find for me, obviously, like every day there’s a different amount of words, but getting into it could take 45 minutes one day before I’m really writing, and then I could write– Some days I can write like 2,000 words after that initial push. So if I don’t use time, if I used words, I may just, for me, I might force out words that just aren’t very good to get them on the page rather than knowing like, “No, I can settle into this and just… it’s, it’s okay that I only wrote 200 words in a half an hour because I know I have another hour when it’s actually gonna hit me.” Like my muse hits, I guess you could say.

Ava: Yeah. Oh, interesting. Okay. I like that. Yeah, I feel like I, I do sometimes give myself permission to say, you know, these– this part, I can get rid of it later, or I’m just gonna start and see where it goes. Because otherwise, yes, if I try and make it too, too perfect or th-this is gonna be the final version, I’ll just never write.

So I have to give myself permission to say, “Okay, this can be, just good enough to get the story moving where it needs to go.” And then usually it ends up being it, it’s fine. , But trying to kinda take the pressure off of yourself, I guess, is what I try and do.

Mark: Yeah. Are you aiming for a book a year, two books a year? Do you have a goal for how much you write?

Ava: Yeah. I think for a while I was really putting a lot of pressure to do… I, I think I did, yeah, at least a couple books in a year. And I don’t have a, a book goal so much as I just think short-term, when do I wanna finish this next one? So like, I know I wanna finish my next one in the next two months, and that’s my next goal.

And then I don’t, I don’t do well… I take a little break between books, but not too long because then I start thinking like, “Okay, I, I… The idea is there, and now I just wanna get going.” So I think knowing me, it definitely is usually more than one a year. But I had so many coming out this past year that I wasn’t able to write one until… the one I’m writing right now, I’m like halfway through, so

Mark: And with “The Summerhouse Murder,” do, is it beginning to end that book and only that book mostly that’s in your mind?

Ava: Yes, definitely. Yeah, I focus on one at a time. That would be, that, that would be impressive if somebody could write more than one at a time. But for me, I definitely have to be, like, all in on the one that I’m writing.

Mark: Oké The setting for this book is at Lake George in the Adirondacks. How did you decide that that was gonna be the location, if it has any personal connection with you, or if it was just a location that you picked?

Ava: I just wanted it to be someplace really beautiful, but really sort of majestic and remote, at least in this, this part of Lake George. And I wanted it to be something where, there’s a little bit of a, um, sort of just this feeling of… lake George is known for being really clear water, but it’s really deep, and I just thought it’s so symbolic, and it’s just so atmospheric.

And, I don’t know exactly how I chose that other than it just sort of felt right. I, I thought of a different, you know, a couple different places, and that one just sort of felt like, okay. When I thought of that, it being set there, it just kind of felt right.

Mark: How much of what you wrote on Lake George is factual and how much did you have to make up?

Ava: I made up, I took quite a few liberties in terms of making up, none of that is real about sort of there being an easement and being, no houses were being allowed to build there, but I just did that because I wanted them to be isolated where you couldn’t too easily get to neighbors. So yes, I, I’m not sure if any place like that specifically exists in terms of their actual house.

Mark: Oké

Ava: Yeah

Mark: Are there any favorite vacation spots that now feel different because of the story?

Ava: No, I don’t think,, I, I, I love going on family vacations, and I usually… The places we go, they don’t feel, like creepy or haunted at all. So, um, it’s funny because the next book that I’m writing is set, in, well, it was gonna be Martha’s Vineyard, but now I’m thinking Nantucket because I’m doing the Nantucket Book Festival.

There’s a local author signing, and I’m gonna go stay with an author friend, and,, our family is gonna go, and I feel like now going out there, I’m like, “Oh, that’ll be interesting to see if, since I’m writing a book right now that has kind of a thriller element, like how it feels.” But usually it’s so far removed from reality in terms of your actual experience someplace versus writing a book that’s totally fiction and all in my imagination. So I think it’s, it’s different enough.

Mark: So you don’t go to all the sites to look at, like to look around the lake. I imagine that you were on, I mean, this is just me imagining, that you were on Lake George at the middle of the lake on a boat and just looking around at what you were gonna do and how you were gonna do it.

Ava: Yeah, yeah. No, I’ve always been to every place that I write about, but I don’t really, I don’t go scout it out before I write, you know? Yeah.

Mark: Okay When you were writing the book, did you, as you were writing the characters, did you go from point of view to point of view writing it just like it was in the final draft? Or do you find yourself writing like Esme’s story and then coming back to write Piper’s or, or mixing it up?

Ava: I usually just try and write in the order that I think it’s gonna most logically flow for the reader. So I s- I kind of stick with if I know… For these ones, for the, for these sisters, I want to be, take a turn each time, and then intersperse their background and Alexis’s story too. So I just sort of stick with the order.

I know some authors write different orders, and they kind of piecemeal it together. But for me, I want to write it in the order that I think the reader is gonna read it. And then when I go back and I edit it, I can do it that way if I wanna change things. But that’s how I usually approach it

Mark: Okay. Did you ever change anything in the way you wrote this one, or it just went, it just went the way you intended it?

Ava: , Let’s see. I know there was a couple s- parts that I definitely changed with my editor, who, she had some really great insights, and it was really exciting to get her feedback. I’m trying to think of which parts that we changed. Something about the hotel was different and how that scene went, and then, well, I can’t give too many spoilers.

But towards the end, we changed quite a few things, and that, I really liked those changes that she had suggested. And then she had her suggestions, and then I kind of did my take on it, and then I thought it made it even better, which is really what you want from an editor, is that they give you suggestions that make the book so much better, and that’s why a great editor is invaluable.

Mark: Yeah. Okay. I’m gonna hold that follow-up for the spoiler section of the

Ava: Okay, ja. Hold, hvis du er færdig.

Mark: Okay. So as we start to wrap up a little bit, what advice would you give to someone who just published their first or second novel?

Ava: Ooh, , advice to someone who just published their first or second novel. Well, I would say come on the Thriller Pitch Podcast and talk to someone because it’s a great… You know, I think the more you can talk about your work and, , you know, be out there and tell people your story and network, I think that’s always really important.

And sometimes authors we’re, you know, by nature we’re kind of wanna be private and just writing our stories and not talking about it so much. But I think, you know, talking about it and promoting it, . and I would say to keep writing because, you know, it’s a, it’s a long-term career, and one or two books is great, but to, to try and know that the more that you write the better you’re gonna get at your craft and the more readers and fans that you’ll have. So I think to keep going

Mark: Yeah. Did you ever think about changing genre or the type of story that you write? Or you just, this is what you knew you wanted to do?

Ava: I, I always knew that this was the genre I wanted to do, and I’ve thought about, I’ve thought about changing genre, and I have not so far. I don’t think that I will at this point just because I’m really enjoying it, and I feel like, once you kind of get to be sort of an expert in what you’re doing, why change a good thing? But yeah, someday I may change into doing a different type of genre

Mark: Yeah. You mentioned community too. What, are there like any events that you attended that you, like was your favorite event? I heard Thriller Fest, everyone’s talking about Thriller Fest probably because it’s coming up or did it just happen? I can’t remember, but do you have a favorite?

Ava: know. Yeah, I was pl- I haven’t been to Thriller Fest yet. I was planning on being on a panel there, and I really wanted to, but it just didn’t work out the timing-wise. It’s, um, that weekend was not… I wasn’t able to. But yeah, I, there’s always, local, you know, there’s the Nantucket Book Festival.

There’s all types of, conventions and, like, thriller authors where readers and authors come together. In terms of community, I think, you know, you can join writers groups, and you can join classes. And, I think finding, you know, people that you can trust, and whether it’s even just reaching out to someone who’s not in your area, and maybe it’s via online, but you’re a fan of theirs it’s just nice to have other authors that you trust and can talk to and commiserate and give each other blurbs and cheer each other on, their successes. Like, that’s been a really fun part of being an author, is I really enjoy my author friends. Like, ’cause they’re people that I look up to, and I read their books, and now I get to be… I get to talk to them. I mean, it’s amazing. It’s like this is really exciting that I get to know you personally, so

Mark: Yeah, it is. It’s a special thing, yeah.

Ava: Yeah

Mark: A question from Amanda Reynolds, who from a guest on our last show. She asks, “Do you have sisters, and why did you decide to write a book about sisters?”

Ava: Ah, okay. Well, I may not answer that one just because I don’t know. I, I feel like if I, I wanna leave some of the mystery about, like… I feel like when authors, like, overshare with too much of who they are or their personal background, sometimes it takes the mystery away, and that almost makes it less compelling than if you sort of are left to wonder and not know. So that one, Amanda, I’m gonna have to just, may have to wonder.

Mark: Okay, we’ll leave her wondering then. We’ll all wonder. And where can listeners find your book and know what– find out about what’s coming next for you?

Ava: Well, the best way to reach me is my website, authoravaroberts.com, and there is a contact form there, and it has, uh, links to all my books. Um, and yeah, you can get it in any format, hardback, paperback, um, audiobook through Spotify and, Kindle. And yeah, it’s available, and, um, I always welcome people to reach out and contact me if you have any questions or just wanna tell me what you thought about the book

Mark: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been great. This is the end of our regular section, so for listeners, you know we are headed into the spoiler section. So if you do not wanna know how this book ends and hear about the, the editor’s changes that we just talked about, you’re gonna wanna pause now, go get the book, read the book. I promise you will be back in no time at all. I blew through this novel. I, I really enjoyed it. And, and then, come back and listen to the rest of the show. So we are moving into the spoiler section

Ava: All right.

Mark: So we know in the end the, the body who belongs to Bridget and how Alexis killed her and, and, and the whole setup. Did you always know that was gonna be the end? As I was reading the, the book and I was we didn’t know who, we didn’t know who the body was for a long time. That was the mystery, like who’s dead? Could’ve been

Ava: Exactly. Yep

Mark: we did know, it was like, oh, who did it? And then, and then we found that out. So I wonder if, since you mentioned you, you, write as you go, you don’t have, you don’t outline. So did you know who the body was and who the murderer was and all that? Or was that like, did you experience it with us as you wrote it?

Ava: Yeah. I’m trying to remember. I am, I’m pretty sure I knew, I knew the concept was, I thought there’s always one dead body. I want there to be two dead bodies in the lake, because I just thought that that was something that I hadn’t seen as much. So I knew that it was gonna be, um, Bridget first, and I knew that it was gonna be Alexis.

So that part was, I remember kind of knowing c- I, that was there. And that it was gonna be sort of set up to seem like it was Esme or her husband or, you know, Greg and, or, or any of the sisters really. But in terms of the parts that were more… I didn’t know how I would get there really, in terms of h- how she would murder her, that part was sort of fuzzy and yeah. But I did know that that part was kind of just there all along

Mark: Okay. Who do you think the main villain is of your book? There are, there are so many things, right? Because y- you could look at– When you’re done reading, you’re, you’re kind of… Well, this is how I was left thinking, was like, Greg could be the villain because without him b- doing the, the affair and everything, none of this ever happened. Mom, their mother could be the villain because had she not treated Alexis this way, a lot of these things wouldn’t have happened. And then of course, Alexis herself, who could be the villain, and then for all the things that she set up and the deception. H- who do you think is the villain and, and how did you kinda go about that?

Ava: Well, I do think that, that sort of all of the above are true, and that’s why I thought it was so interesting because in real life there’s not always just one villain. And I think that Alexis, I feel like she was a villain, but then you could also understand where she was coming from, and it doesn’t justify what she did or make it right, but you understand how damaged she is and where that came from.

And then, um, I do think Esme was very unlikable and she made a lot of decisions that people, you know, it, it’s hard to understand, you know, where she, why she did that. , So I kind of think that all of the above in some ways, but then they’re all relatable too. So it’s kind of an interesting juxtaposition.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah, it is. That’s what– When I put the book down, that’s what left me wondering ’cause now I’m answering the question at the end of the show for how do you want people to feel on how I felt was like I couldn’t decide who I thought was the villain because… And what, like you were, like you said, it’s so, there’s so much human in that because you could point to anyone, so many characters and say that’s the villain and not the villain, and yeah. It’s so very fun.

Ava: Yeah. Yeah, it is fun. And other people, from what I’ve heard so far from readers, is they have… Some people have less problems knowing who… People have strong, like, feelings one way or the other. Sometimes people feel like, “Oh, Esme, I couldn’t stand her. I’m so glad that she got what was coming.”

Other people feel like, “Oh, Alexis was terrible. I can’t believe she, she was the villain and she, she get, you know, get away with it too mu- too easily, get off too easily.” And I said to that, you know, I think that in the end we can assume that, you know, things are not gonna probably end up really well for her long term, because she has this pattern of getting into trouble, so I assume that she will, you know, get what’s coming in terms of that.

But yeah, I do think that, that’s what’s so fun, right, is everyone gets to, to read it and feel how they feel about it and make their own conclusions. And, I think that’s, you know, a good novel is when it makes people question things and feel differently and have some kind of, you know, thoughtful experience and emotional reaction.

And whether it’s, you know… Hopefully, it’s also satisfying, ’cause you feel like, “Okay, I feel like the story ended. I feel like I got, you know, the answers I wanted to know, and it’s satisfying, but it also leaves me feeling something,” you

Mark: Ja Do you imagine a Summer House Murder 2 where the kids all come back and they have to stay at the house for two weeks together, like all their kids, and then something happens with those, with their kids? ‘Cause if we’re talking generational trauma, which we kinda do, right? From, from mom and what happened with her trauma, which is how it got reflected on the other, other sort of, we don’t know the whole story, but… and now the kids have been through all of this. Have you thought about, like, a book two set in there?

Ava: Yeah, I’ve definitely thought about a book two, and I’ve had so many different ideas for what that would look like with that, the next generation or continuing on their story, and then having that be flashbacks to sort of where it ends off, and then also being the next generation. So I would, I would love to write that because these characters were so fun for me that I would love to revisit them and see if, you know, a book two is in the could happen

Mark: Yeah, I would read a book too.

Ava: Yeah, I would read a book two too. But it’s not to say that I don’t want people to feel like it leaves on a cliffhanger because I was really intentional that you should feel like, okay, there was an ending to it, and it, you know, was satisfying as it is. And then, but a good book, you always wanna read more about the characters, right? That’s hopefully, yeah.

Mark: Yeah, exactly. When, when a reader wants a book two, that’s a good sign. Yeah. I wanna know what becomes of them and

Ava: Yeah, like you feel like you, you could hear more. That’s how I always feel whenever I finish a good book, I feel like they’re, I get to know them as people, and I’m kind of sad that it’s over, and, you know, I wish I could keep reading, so

Mark: Yeah. There are some books where I wish I could forget so that I could reread them again.

Ava: Yes. Wouldn’t, wouldn’t that be great? I think about that a lot, wishing I could reread books. But there’s so many good novels out there that you say, “Okay, you just have to move on and read new ones.” But yeah, sometimes especially, you know, when you’re younger and you’re reading those books for the first time, you think, “Wow, if I could just go back.”

Mark: Ja So let’s hear the, the answer to the editing question. What, what did your editor suggest for changes that, that ended up being adjusted a little bit?

Ava: Okay, so I know that there was something at the hotel, the way that happened that where, when, , when Regina went to the hotel, that we changed that pretty significantly, that scene. And then, we changed the ending was going to initially be Alexis was dead, and then she had this great idea that what if she’s not?

And I had, I initially had kind of, um, more of a happy ending with the sisters kind of coming together. Um, but it wasn’t resonating as much as like feeling like this is a realistic ending for these sisters given all they’ve been through and their history and kind of their personalities. So I think sometimes you want to wrap things up in a happy bow, and then you realize, okay, this is maybe not the most natural conclusion of what would happen.

So how can we give some of that, coming together and then also have it be, consistent and then, um… And also Alexis is just such a compelling character that it’s hard to wanna let her go, I think is what we decided. So that’s why we made it sort of a, um, a teaser. We think she’s gone, and then she’s not. So I, I love that. I’m glad we changed it, and that was all, that was her idea.

Mark: How do you balance that when you– Do you think about that when you’re approaching stories, balancing that happy ending? I mean, there’s, it’s, you know, psychological domestic thrillers don’t necessarily have happy endings all the time like romance does. But sometimes you want that feel-good ending, and I’m with you my endings are never very happy or I don’t end on very happy notes, so I get that. But I also wonder about ending a book on a happier note so that readers are like, “Yes.” You know, like when you’re watching like Avengers or something, and at the end they just kick all the butt and, and then you get pumped up.

Or “Lincoln Lawyer” comes to mind when I was watching “Lincoln Lawyer” on Netflix, and when he wins the case even after all the things that he’s done, and you’re just like, “Yes, he won the case.” You know, like those

Ava: Yeah. Like, yes, it’s so satisfying when they get what they deserve, and the ending is … Yes, I love that, too, and I think it’s important to give people that. And so it doesn’t have to be a perfect ending. It doesn’t have to be in a bow, but, you know, wrapped up in an unrealistic way. But yes, I think that’s why a lot of people felt like, okay, yes, Alexis, after all she’s been through, she does kind of get the last word.

She kind of wins, and Esme is sort of brought, brought down, you know, in terms of having to deal with, okay, now she’s building a house right there. So I definitely think that that was satisfying for a lot of people. And the fact that Regina was doing so well, um, off and her, you know, back with her family, and that Piper was really doing well, I think that was the satisfying part. And then, but how you give that to people can look a little bit differently, right, in terms of I have multiple endings, right? Of how you … Yeah

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. My last question for you: what’s one question you’d like me to ask the next author who comes on the show? And the next author is Cleo Ballard. She wrote “This Is a Lie” about a woman who uses, a woman who uses AI to create the perfect friend and finds herself trapped in a cat and mouse game.

Ava: Yes. I, okay, I know Cleo. I did an inter- uh, podcast with her. She’s great. She’s fantastic. You’re gonna enjoy talking with her. So my next question for her would be, so sh- her book is about AI, and my series of Thistle & Thrillers was about AI. So I had some kind of creepy AI things happening to me when I was writing my book, and I want to know, did anything happen to you that was creepy from AI or that you felt like, seemed odd to you when you were writing the book, as if the AI was aware that you were writing your book?

Mark: Okay. Great question. All right, so if you don’t mind sticking around for, uh, a few more minutes for the after show with our pa- for our Patreon guests, that would be awesome. Thank you so much for your time. This has been great.

Ava: Oh, thank you so much. It was great talking to you.

Mark: Ava Roberts, “The Summerhouse Murders.” You should have read it if you’re at this point in the podcast because we gave it all away. But if you haven’t anyway, get it, read it, review it, because that really helps authors. Thank you for listening and/or watching. Have a wonderful day.