TPP Episode 20 with Jo Loveday

Coming up on the Thriller Pitch podcast.

Jo: One of the things that I wanted to explore was how other cultures treat addiction versus Western culture. And in some other cultures, they think of, addiction or even mental health as a spirit coming into someone.

​Mark: What makes a great thriller tick, and what does it take to write one? Welcome to the Thriller Pitch Podcast, where bestselling award-winning and emerging thriller authors share the craft research and real world experiences that power today’s most gripping stories. I’m your host, mark p Jay Nadal.

Whether you’re writing thrillers or can’t get enough of reading them, this show takes you inside the minds of the authors, behind the twist, characters and moments that keep us turning the page.

This week I’m [00:01:00] joined by Joe Loveday, author of Campus of Shadows, a psychological horror thriller about identity addiction, and the moment a mind breaks wide open, we talk about how real world experiences shape this story, the line between psychological collapse and possession, and what it means to write the monster within. Joe, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here today.

Jo: Thank you so much for having me, mark. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk books with you.

Mark: I’m glad you took the opportunity, so let’s get right into it. Campus of Shadows is your book. Read it. Really enjoyed, read it and listened to it. Really enjoyed it. So I’m very excited to talk about this one. This was pretty different for some of the books I’ve had lately and how character driven it, it was.

But I’ll let you pitch it first and then we’ll, we’ll dive into it all.

Jo: Okay. The campus of Shadows asks one central terrifying question, when the mind breaks, who [00:02:00] walks in. And it’s a psychological horror thriller where two college roommates, Dave and Zane, become trapped in a man versus self battle that turns into something far darker. Dave is neurodivergent, emotionally immature, and already struggling with his identity.

Zane is a charismatic tornado. He’s a confident chick magnet. Which it seems at first is what Dave wants or thinks he needs. But Zane has his own demons and his obsession with chasing intensity and chaos and chemical escapes slowly drags Dave into addiction. So when Dave’s mind begins to fracture, that vulnerability opens the door to something else, something that’s hungry.

So this book takes the psychological spiral that we talk about in reality [00:03:00] of trauma dependency and emotional collapse, and asks, what if the worst part of yourself wasn’t just a metaphor, but actual potential entry points? What if there really was a force waiting to take over if you’re no longer strong enough to hold on?

And so campus shadows is not true dark academia, it’s more the psychiatric ward version. It’s kind of the nightmare that’s inside the human psyche where the true enemy isn’t a campus or other students or even a roommate. It’s the internal possession that one must fight or that Dave must fight from the inside out and it becomes a psychic battle for the soul.

So Dave has to figure out how to stop this takeover before he disappears forever. [00:04:00] So campus shadows is for readers who, like supernatural thrillers that go past jump scares and into the terror of the mind that you can’t escape from.

Mark: That’s great. Thank you. And I really like the psychological side. I find the psychological side for me far scarier than that spook scare. Like I can play scary video games, I can watch a Stephen King movie where there scary things happen and it doesn’t bother me. But when you have psychological elements and things are really playing out there that really messes with me. So, and you did a great job with this. I’d like to start with where the idea came from. How did you, what sparked it?

Jo: Well, there were a few things. One of the things that I wanted to explore was how other cultures treat addiction versus Western culture. And in some other cultures, they think of, addiction or even mental health [00:05:00] as a spirit coming into someone. And so I was interested in researching I did a lot of research on that.

And some of it is in the story, but have you ever known somebody who drinks too much and they seem to become another person?

Mark: Yeah.

Jo: Like, you know, like they, they just become different. My father-in-law was alcoholic and he would get to a point where he would get this laugh. And it, and we all just kind of knew that it wasn’t him anymore.

And so I thought, well, maybe there is something to this. And that was one of the things that I wanted to research and weave into the story. Then one of the other things is I wanted to bring more awareness to the learning disability decal, QE. Uh, disc. I can’t even say it.

Um, dyscalculia ’cause because I have dyscalculia and it’s sort of the unknown [00:06:00] sister to dyslexia. A lot of people know about dyslexia with reading. Well, dyscalculia is a numbers thing and it’s a problem with maths, which I’ve always had and I didn’t even know all of the attributes until I started to do more research for the book.

When I was young, I always struggled with math. And then when I was in university level math, I got a tutor who said, well, maybe you need to learn your times tables. And I thought, well, you know, that was a long time ago. I know my times tables, so maybe there’s something else going on. And so those were the two of the things that I wanted to bring into the story.

Mark: And there’s some really big emotional moments in this story. Especially early on. ’cause as we get to know Dave, we realize how hard he is on himself. His dad’s hard on him. His brother, is someone he looks up [00:07:00] to, but otherwise sees as perfect and he can’t be like that and there’s a, a scene in the prison where his mother, he’s on the phone with her and his dad’s upset and she says, don’t, I can’t remember exactly what she says, but it’s like, don’t, don’t, be upset.

He has a disability or something like that. And it’s like, it’s all, it was heartbreaking to see, to have that all happen and to just be in that moment with him. How did you create that? Is there a parallel between what you’ve gone through and what David has gone through?

Jo: Well, I’ve. Never been to jail. So, so that’s a good thing. But there are many moments not, not so much with my parents because my parents were supportive, but just I think I’ve been very hard on myself and so if I mess up with something, and I know the reason is because of the math problem or some of the other things that flow [00:08:00] over from that, like, reading out Loud is one of them.

For, for some strange reason, people with dyscalculia have difficulty reading out loud. It’s like the, the words flip like numbers, but not when you’re reading on the page. Within my family I didn’t have those kinds of difficulties, but I am hard on myself with that sometimes.

Mark: How did you feel after writing the book? Did it feel like you told that story.

Jo: Somewhat, somewhat cathartic, but I, my main concern with the book was to see whether or not I actually was able to get across the idea of different alternatives for addiction. Like perhaps we in Western culture are not treating addiction as best we could and if, and could there be other ways to look at it. So that was my main concern to see if I got that [00:09:00] across properly, and hopefully I did.

Mark: Mm-hmm. And what other kinds of research did you have to do for this?

Jo: Well, I read a lot about dyscalculia. I got in touch with people who work in the field, and I actually sent the book to a couple of people who work in the field, want a PhD and others who have the Dyscalculia network and ask them to read the book to see if I got things correct. With some of the other parts and other research.

I did a lot of research a number of years ago in preparing for this just reading about other cultures, reading lots of books, talking and also talking to people from other cultures. So that’s where it came from.

Mark: What about his decline into the drug addiction and things that come, I mean, we know why by the end, but did you have to do research to, ’cause it was really well [00:10:00] done the way he slowly declined throughout the book.

Jo: Well, I’m a nurse by profession and we had to do mental health nursing as well. So we had to study a lot and go on psychiatric wards and things like that. So. I had some exposure in that regard and so I was able to bring that in. And I also read and reread Stephen King’s book The Shining, to see how he had portrayed that madness and the slow decline.

But I would say most of it came from clinical experience in studying from nursing.

Mark: Okay, so do you consider yourself an outliner or a plotter?

Jo: I’m definitely a plotter. I plot and I outline and I am not good at being a cancer. I tried to be a pan when [00:11:00] I, I tried to be a pants when I first started and I sat down. I thought, okay, I am gonna write. Write this book. And I had like a couple of main plot points and it was just a huge mess.

So I found that I really need to outline it. I outline down to every single chapter and what I’m going to do and pretty much with each chapter. And then as I’m going let that flow a little bit, a couple of times I think I overdo it because a couple of times my characters have said, let me do the talking.

But for the most part, I do need to outline. Otherwise I’m just all over the place.

Mark: Do you also build a character? Outline, like you ask and interview questions and then decide who they are based on some of those answers.

Jo: I, I have pages for each character, where I. Go through, not only their physical characteristics, but their flaws, their wants, their needs, their strengths, [00:12:00] and even where they want to work or might work. And all of their family members and I, and family relationships and other relationships. So I do extensive interviews with my characters.

Mark: how long did it take to create this book, even from idea, ’cause that sounds like a lot for outlining. Does the outline process take you a long time and then the writing is shorter because it’s so you already know everybody.

Jo: With this book, it was Revision C, campus of Shadows was the first book that I wrote. And, I worked on it for about 10 years. It was probably eight years and then I put it aside. And, wrote terminal lucidity, but there were many layers of revision. Because I needed to learn the craft of writing. I needed to learn all of the things that have to be woven into plot and characterization. And it, it took a lot of time.

Mark: Can you think of any [00:13:00] things that changed as you learned the craft? Things that you saw from 10 years ago if you looked at that draft and you saw, oh, I didn’t do this very well, and now because you’ve learned you can you under you do better.

Jo: I had no plot in the beginning. I had a theme and I had almost no plot, so I needed to work that out and I needed to learn how particularly the main character moves through the story making decisions and how that each decision creates the next scenario, be it good or bad. So that took a while.

And then how all the different components with all the characters have to come together at each main plot point. There was still a little a learning curve there.

Mark: Okay.

Jo: But I, from what I’m told, that’s average, like I’ve heard that it’s average of three books in 10 years before you get out there and [00:14:00] in the world.

Mark: Yeah, I would agree. I think I, I hear that story a lot with the podcast of writers who the first book took anywhere, it could be anywhere from eight to 10 years or even longer. And myself included, take a really long time with my first book which never amounted to anything. It just kind of sits there now because, same thing, learning the craft and then book two and book three and book four.

Now they get faster and faster and you put out more and more because it’s, once you’ve learned the craft and you’ve learned the process, it gets a lot easier. You had an interesting rule in the book with no contractions. I’m curious where that came from.

Jo: Well, I wanted to be able to differentiate as Dave’s mind became infiltrated by Ivan’s spirit, I wanted the reader to be able to differentiate who was talking because you had Dave’s spoken word, then Dave’s thoughts. Then you have [00:15:00] when Ivan is controlling Dave’s thoughts and you have, when Ivan is controlling everything about Dave.

And his thoughts, his words and the words are Ivan’s coming out of Dave’s mouth? So that was the thing that I came up with that how can I have that differentiation so the reader realizes who it is speaking in this moment.

Mark: Did that come later, or was that early on?

Jo: It was early on ’cause I figured I have to have something in there and I think it helped somewhat for the narrator as well. Because there are lots of different voices for the narrator to portray there.

Mark: Yeah. At its core, what kind of story would you say this is? What challenge did it present to you as a writer?

Jo: At its core, I would say overall it’s a thriller, but that it’s psychological [00:16:00] horror as well, which I was horrified when I found out that I was writing horror, because it’s not really it’s like I think of horror as the blood and guts type things of splatter punk kind of horror and as a nurse, I spent my years working in ICU putting people back together from those kinds of things.

So, but I think that I, in getting into the mental aspects. Of it and how things affect our psyche that’s the psychological horror part of it.

Mark: And what were some of the challenges you faced in writing this book?

Jo: Well, first of all, just learning the craft was, was a big one. But then also just making sure that I portray it so that it seems realistic. Because it’s not easy to get into someone else’s head and create a mental demise [00:17:00] that someone can follow. And the other challenge for me was that doing it from a male point of view, because males think differently from females and they have a different vernacular. So I had to change a lot of my wording in my critique group. They’re saying, no, that sounds too much like a girl. You have to change that up. So, so I, I had to learn that too.

Mark: Okay. I would have to compliment you on that. It was very well done. I was thinking that as I read it too. Not that it was just well done from the, from the idea of, wow, this is really coming to life. Like, I can imagine that gets happening just like this. There was nothing that pulled me out of the story, which can happen sometimes. It was very well done that way.

Jo: so thank you.

Mark: So when a reader finishes the book and puts it down, what are you hoping they’re gonna feel or what they’re gonna be thinking about.

Jo: I hope people [00:18:00] think about the potential of looking at addiction differently, and I hope some people in the addiction community consider that maybe there are other things that we could look at and things that we could do because there is a very high instance of recurrence once, when people go into rehab or I’m trying to think of the term for it, but you know, it, it, they can slip and go back to their old ways and whatever it may be, whether it’s alcohol or drugs. So I hope people think, oh, maybe there are other things that we could look at.

Mark: Have you thought about David after this book? ’cause I don’t want to get spoilers to how it ends, but let’s assume, or let’s pretend we don’t know how it ends inside. Do you think about him now because like of the way it ends, do you think oh, I wonder if he did this or I wonder if he ended up that way?

Jo: [00:19:00] I have actually been too busy to think about that

Mark: Okay. Fair.

Jo: At the after because the launch was about a month ago. So just trying to get the book out, the best that I could, I haven’t really thought about that much. I do have left things open so that it at some time in the future I could talk to Dave again and explore what he’s doing and see if there’s something else we might bring back.

Mark: Okay. Yeah I know I really enjoyed a book when I put it down and, and I’m thinking like that ’cause I was already, as soon as I stopped reading it, I was thinking about, I wonder what happened to him after all this. What’s, where’s the epilogue? Or in this guy, I guess it could be a book too. But I think about that stuff a lot with characters.

I really enjoyed that are, that came to life that much. Did you find when you were writing him that it was difficult to send him in that direction? ‘Cause I can imagine as you’re writing it, you have to almost be frustrated yourself even though [00:20:00] you’re telling his story and you’re the writer frustrated with the decisions he’s making.

’cause sometimes you’re like, oh, why would you do that? Just turn left instead of right. Like why? Why are you doing that? But he keeps doing it. And that’s the dissent that obviously you wanted to have happen and it was necessary for the story. But what was it like writing that? Did you find yourself just like, oh man this is hard to do ’cause I just, I just gotta, like, I’m beating this kid with a stick as the story goes on.

Jo: Well, I had to create those bad decisions, so I wanted to try to create bad decisions that would, that would lead him down that path and make sense, you know, have, have all of that make sense as a step by step demise and then also for him to be able to help himself at the end too.

Mark: Right. Okay. I get that’s the advantage to being an outliner is that I imagine this is how, like you see A to B, you know you have to get to B, and then you have to [00:21:00] figure out how to get him to B as opposed to a pants who will just be going along with it, putting their character through a bunch of crap to see where they get to right.

So I’ll touch on this question anyway, even though you kind of already answered it, but I kind of wanted to touch on it a little bit anyway. Zane was a really interesting character because I wasn’t even sure if he was also descending. I mean, I’m not gonna give this a spoiler as to the ending and stuff, but I wasn’t sure am I supposed to like him? I know he’s sending David in the wrong direction, but he’s just like this fun guy. And I’m curious did you aim for him to be neutral or are we supposed to be almost disliking him and seeing his corruption of David? Because it seems like he’s like a character who’s just he’s doing his thing and David’s following him around who wants to be like him and he’s just being him. Is that a bad guy? I don’t know.

Jo: Well in, in some people to apparent he might be a [00:22:00] bad guy, but to another student he’s a lot of fun. And I wanted to show that dichotomy between the two. How someone can be sometimes be a really good friend and sometimes, you know, be not be so self-serving that you’re getting in trouble because of all of it.

And also that I mean, saying’s a guy in university who’s having fun and he was a lot of fun to write because he goes so crazy. So, I wanted to portray that both sides of him and, carry him along sort of like a foil type character rather than an antagonist.

Mark: If you had the pass on some advice to a writer about how to create characters like this, how would you, ’cause I think this is to me, character is is the root of of all [00:23:00] story. I mean, it’s like plot versus character. Some people like plot driven stories, which is fine. I’m huge on character driven stories ’cause I just love that connection. What advice would you give to someone who was just who struggles with creating that kind of authenticity and making them feel real?

Jo: I think part of that is also just giving into your characters, letting them talk somewhat. But, I studied a lot about characters and types of characters. There’s, I wonder if I have that book here. There’s a thing called 45 Master Characters by a guy named Schmidt. I got it on the bookshelf there.

And that goes into detail about lots of different types of characters and gives examples. And so that was helpful to me in the beginning when I was trying to figure out, okay, how does each character fit into which role? Because they all have to tie [00:24:00] in. And so I would say if somebody’s really struggling with figuring out characters that that can, that can be helpful.

That book

Mark: Okay. 48 characters.

Jo: 45 Master

Mark: oh, I messed

Jo: By Schmidt pretty close.

Mark: Yeah. There might be, there might be three more in there somewhere. Okay. What advice would you give to someone who just published their first or second book?

Jo: Keep writing, just keep going because there are a lot of ups and downs in the business and highs and lows, and so just keep writing and I follow your favorite characters because if you like those characters, then they’re, they’ll be easier for you to write. And you can explore the different things that they bring out and possibly even put them in a series

Mark: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, good advice. If you can pick [00:25:00] one thing that led to your success so far, what would it be?

Jo: Determination. And sticktoitiveness because there are, there are lots of ups and downs and there was 10 years of learning the craft. And it’s like, oh, is this ever gonna come to anything? Is it are my books ever going to get out there and in the world? And, and with all the layers of revision and revise and you go back to your critique group and they say, no, that’s not working. And you revise again and say, well, what about this? And then you revise again. So yeah, just have to hang in there.

Mark: When did you feel like campus, the shadows was ready after all this time? How did you know that was the moment that it was? Okay. I’m ready to send this up to the world now after all this time.

Jo: Well, I put it away and wrote terminal lucidity. And then when I went back I did a whole, another layer of revision [00:26:00] and at that point I was comfortable with it and felt like there wasn’t really a whole lot more that I could do. And actually at that point I cut out quite a bit of the first half of the book. Not quite several chapters, I guess, just to get to the low point more quickly. Because it was a lot about college life and all the different fun things in college life, but it wasn’t really moving the plot along as fast as it needed to.

Mark: Okay. So I have a question here from mark Philbin. He was my last guest on the show. So we have this pay it forward with the guest question. You’ll get to ask your question to the next guest. He asks, he wants to ask you, what is it about your main character you’re most afraid of, and how does it impact the way you plot your book?

Jo: What am I most afraid of with this character? I guess I was most afraid of not having not portraying [00:27:00] his decline so that it was understood by the reader.

Mark: Okay. And where can listeners find your book?

Jo: Well the books are all on Amazon. It’s on Amazon as an ebook as well as audiobook. And in Canada it’s in Indigo in Winnipeg, it’s in all of the win the Indigo Chapter stores. And I’m not sure about the rest of the country there or the rest of the Indigo stores, but I know that in Winnipeg, it’s in all of those stores. And it’s also on Cobo the audiobook. And the ebook are available on Cobo. And then you can find more about me at, so this is, this is the QR for the audiobook. And then this is, this is me, and you can find me on the socials at Joe Loveday.

Mark: Great. Sounds good. Thank you. I will link to all that in the show notes so people can just click in the show notes and go straight to those spots.

Jo: Okay. Well thank you.

Mark: Well, thank you [00:28:00] so much for your time. This has been great. I have really enjoyed learning more about this book.

Jo: Well, thank you so much, mark. I’ve really enjoyed talking about thriller books with you.

Mark: And if you have an extra minute after the show, we’re just gonna stick around for the after show, the Rapid Fire for our Patreon members.

Jo: Okay. Absolutely.

Mark: Thanks for listening and make sure you’re following the show so you don’t miss next week’s conversation with Andrew Warren. We dig into White Tiger and the challenges of returning to characters from Book one, how he built a villain who is both a physical threat and an intellectual one, including the scene where that villain fights while keeping a chess light game running in his head. If you want the part of the conversation that stays off the main episode, the Patreon After Show has it. The rapid fire questions we ask every guest in a few moments that are sometimes a little too honest. For the full cut, you’ll find the link in the show notes. [00:29:00]

TPP Episode 15 with Thomas Stewart

Mark: what makes a great thriller tick? And what does it take to write one? Welcome to the Thriller Pitch Podcast, where bestselling award-winning and emerging thriller authors share the craft research and real world experiences that power today’s most gripping stories. I am your host, mark p Jay Adell.

Whether you’re writing thrillers or can’t get enough of reading them, this show takes you inside the minds of the authors, behind the twists, characters, and moments that keep us turning the page. This week you’ll be hearing from horror thriller author Thomas Stewart, who wrote his latest novel in just three months.

No outline, no rewrites, every word meaningful from the moment it hit the page. We talked about trusting instinct over planning, writing through lived experiences, and giving even the scariest characters real emotional depth.[00:01:00]

Thanks for listening and make sure you’re following the show so you don’t miss episode 16 with Maria Franklin, author of the Psychological Thriller. I don’t like Mondays.

We talk about how a Monday morning moment on a Trane platform sparked the story, why she outlines just enough to stay flexible, and how she built a 50 reader early feedback team to sharpen each draft. I wanna go deeper. You can get early access bonus content, and the after show with rapid fire questions, plus the chance to ask future guests your own.

Over on Patreon, there’s even a free tier with extra content. The links in the show [00:02:00] notes.

Mark: Thomas, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show.

Thomas: Yes. Thank you. Mark.

Mark: We are gonna get right into it with, Allison’s Tears. Pitch Me your book.

Thomas: Allison’s tears, a horror novel. The circle must be closed. Following her uncle’s gruesome demise a family’s secrets are uncovered when Porsche Derringer and her father are called to their uncle’s old cabin in grin view pines. A routine getaway was all it was to her, but to others, those trapped within the confines of the old cabin it’s much more than that. It’s cold, unforgiving revenge. In the search for answers portia and her girlfriend’s minds, bodies, and even their souls are put to the ultimate test to survive not only the onslaught of the Unquiet [00:03:00] dead but the truth of Portia herself. Some truths can be deadlier than lies,

Mark: That’s great. Thank you. So what sparked the idea for this book?

Thomas: so the answer to that is actually twofold. I had always had an idea in my head about a story or just a scene where a man is struggling to try and scribble out a note or a final testament of some sort. While some impending doom is just slowly creeping up behind them. I’d had this idea but never knew entirely how I wanted to execute it until I saw A call for submissions on Facebook for an anthology surrounding the idea of ghosts. [00:04:00] Just basically an anthology of ghost stories. And so with the original intention of trying to submit to this, I began writing Allison’s tears. And in true Thomas Stewart fashion, what started as a short story became a full length novel rather quickly. This book was written in just a little over three months.

Mark: Wow. That’s great.

Thomas: Yes.

Mark: So what was the process like for, you’ve written more books. This is what your latest book or upcoming book, what’s your process like now? And for this book, do you, are you what they call a pantser where you just kind of have an idea and you go with it? Or do you outline? Okay.

Thomas: no, personally, when it comes to the pantser v Plotter [00:05:00] debate i’m very much a pantser and I believe honestly, it allows for a much nicer flow to a story because I’ve seen where people will talk all about their plotting process. They have all these notebooks, and all I can think is dude. If this were me, I’d be on book two before you’ve written chapter two. Like, come on, get on with it. No, and I also realize it alleviates a lot more frustrations because you’re not so caught up in trying to force a story into a specific mold that you may realize it’s not meant to fit.

Mark: Yeah. And then how is your rewriting process? ’cause the other side of [00:06:00] not planning is little bit more time rewriting. Do you find you spend more time rewriting?

Thomas: No. actually I very seldom, if ever rewrite, that’s actually something I kind of refuse to do. I’m very deliberate in the way I write something. I write it exactly the way I wanted it to sound.

Mark: And you do that on the first attempt? Yeah. Wow. That’s a gift.

Thomas: Well, it’s one of the things about being an aspe, um, Asperger’s syndrome or autism spectrum disorder. We tend to try and be very deliberate and very upfront with what we say are what we communicate. And yes, that translates a lot into my writing.

Mark: Yeah, and you did a good job with it, so I’m impressed that you were able to do that. Wow.

Thomas: Thank you.[00:07:00]

Mark: So Allison’s Tears is a powerful title, especially given what happens in the story, which I don’t want to give spoilers away, but where did that title come from? Did that title come first or was it after you wrote the book, you just thought this is the perfect title for this book?

Thomas: No, actually, normally it is the latter. Normally the title doesn’t come until after at least most of the stories written. This is one of the few though, where this title was just a faceless title, if you will, just lingering in my mind. I’m like, I, I have to have some story out there by the name of Allison’s Tears or Adeline’s Tears, and I went with Allison.

Mark: And what about the book cover? How did that come about?

Thomas: Yes. This is a [00:08:00] product of grim poppy designs or on Facebook, you would know her as Christie Aldridge. She is an absolute wizard when it comes to book cover art, and I found her when I was publishing with Unveiling Nightmares Press last year with my book Skin that screams. That was when I saw firsthand the kind of prowess she had and the kinds of things she could do with book cover art that I couldn’t do myself. ’cause I, when I started, I was making all my own book covers. Some came out better than others. But when she did the cover of that book, that’s when I realized, I was like, oh, okay. This book originally was gonna actually have a different cover. One that was equally as good. That was good. But then literally the [00:09:00] same night I was gonna do a, cover reveal, I found that she had already sold that exact same book covered to someone else on accident. So I just went to her and I was like, Hey, did, did, did you, did you happen to notice that? And she was like, oh, okay. And so I was like, can, can I just swap this? And she’s like, go right ahead. That’s when I found this one. I’m like, okay, you know what? This one is objectively better honestly captures the creep factor in this book because I will say, I’ve said it before on my socials, of all 16 titles, one is easily a candidate for my new favorite child, and quite easily quite possibly the creepiest book, [00:10:00] the actual most objectively creepy book I’ve actually written, like horror wise, it might actually be the scariest one I’ve done so far.

Mark: Yeah. When you’re writing, how do you balance when you’re building the setting? Because in this, you had. Like vast temperature changes, where as a reader you almost didn’t know, is this happening or is this in their mind? And it’s all like impacting them so much and it’s so vivid. How do you build that?

Thomas: Well, so you mentioned temperature changes like when they are suffering extreme cold or extreme heat. And for me, I’m sometimes a little more temperature sensitive than others. so whereas some, may experience like a light brisky temperature, to me it might be damn near Sub-Zero [00:11:00] temperatures. So. I, I guess that’s kind of where some of that stems from that and sometimes at random I get like real bad chills. ‘Cause there have been several times, especially in the past where, some mornings I’ll wake up and like a full, like a cold sweat. But I’ll be shivering like the house’s temperature is at subzero or below.

Mark: So do you find, I guess that’s like a lived experience. Do you find a lot of lived experiences end up in your book like that?

Thomas: I’m not sure I’d say that’s a regular occurrence. But certain things like that, like what you were describing, perhaps.

Mark: When you made, when you crafted Allison as a character, and we’ll try not, try not to go into spoilers, but she’s a character that we fear and we gain sympathy for. How do [00:12:00] you balance that where there’s that? Yeah. The fear and the sympathy where I’m like, I’m terrified, but at the same time, damn, the poor girl.

Thomas: Well, that’s, so to me, I feel like that’s a little bit of just a common trope when it comes to ghost stories.

Mark: Okay.

Thomas: You come to realize that as terrifying or as vengeful as the phantom may be, there’s typically a reason for it. And that, and I just have a knack for Trying to give villains or even just even just monsters or creatures trying to give them some sort of depth. Allison I wanted someone, wanted, I wanted you to be a little more sympathetic for her, even though yes, you will fear her. But she does, she’s [00:13:00] not entirely just a blood, a blood thirsty, psychopath. She’s,

Mark: Yeah.

Thomas: she just wants the ones that responsible for what had happened to her.

Mark: As a panther, does that come to you as you’re writing the story? Was she scary first in your mind and then her backstory came about? Or do you feel like all these characters live in your mind and then you just put them on the page? They’re kind of developed already, just through like the thought process.

Thomas: With the case of Allison venter, very much so. To put it into more perspective with her character, I always tried to imagine something along the lines of I don’t know if you’ve ever played, I don’t know if you play video games very much, but one video game series I’m very much a fan of, especially if you delve into some of [00:14:00] the lore of it, is the Fear Series. First encounter, assault, recon which is basically just, if Call of Duty met the ring.

Mark: okay, that’s a good pitch

Thomas: it’s a horror first person shooter in which the main antagonist is a phantom by the name of Al Alma Wade. And she did have a lot of inspiration in how I wanted to craft Allison Venter.

Mark: Okay.

Thomas: someone who was, whose as a child was absolutely tortured and witnessed and suffered the absolute worst of humanity, such as the cruelty she, she endured at the [00:15:00] hands of an extremist. An extremist religious cult.

Mark: And how did you then balance someone like Joseph who, there’s a scene early on, so I don’t think it’s that much of a spoiler, but he’s almost like, I liked him for a moment when he’s in the boat with her because he’s just sympathetic and very human. And until I find out later his actual story and, and it’s very surprising ’cause you could have gone either way. He could have been a complete jerk, which is why it led him to being who he, we know we find out who he is later. But you chose to have him a little bit more sympathetic with her.

Thomas: You’re talking, you’re talking about Roger? Yes.

Mark: Oh, I thought it was Joseph. Oh, maybe it was Rogers sir. Okay. And they had, I thought it was Joseph. Oh, okay. I got them confused. Okay. Sorry.

Thomas: When it came [00:16:00] to the Dinger family, the three brothers, Roger, Joseph, and Richard. I, of course wanted them to have like that. Normal family life style and their other dealings were what they kept in secret.

Mark: Okay.

Thomas: And you know, again, it is explained why they do. it. This is also inspired by a true. Supposed, Poltergeist, the Hum Mansion, which is a story where a family, would kidnap children, specifically young girls, and they would sacrifice them by drawing and quartering them and using the blood to seal off a supposed portal to the underworld and one one [00:17:00] year it didn’t work. So the father went throughout the house and slew his entire family, and it was said that their spirits as well as the spirits of their many victims would live within the walls. I very much took inspiration from that. When I was coming up with the idea of the Derringer cabin, all of the children’s they were they were basically trying to make sure that the doorway to the other side. Would never open up or never remain opened in which they would have to kidnap and sacrifice young girls.

Mark: Yeah. So I have a question for you from our last [00:18:00] author that was on the show. ’cause we kinda had let one author ask another author a question. This comes from Melissa Rus, and she asked if you’ve ever written a scene that scared you so much, you had to walk away for a while and then come back to it.

Thomas: In this book no, there’s only been one time though where I was writing. It didn’t scare me, but it did hit me because I realized just how much of myself, especially at the time I was putting into it. That was when I was writing my very first novella, my serial killer novella no less by the title of Mortimer. And it was when Mortimer was giving his backstory and I realized there’s a scene in this that. Very much [00:19:00] mirrored a real life situation I, I had to witness. That would be the only time anything close to that has ever happened, because I wrote it and then I had to, I had to stop for a moment.

Mark: How long does it usually take you to finish these, these books? Well, you said three months for Allison’s Tears. Is that fairly typical for you to turn them novel over that quickly?

Thomas: It depends. My very first novel titled to Hunt RAs, I literally finished that and it was almost 60,000 words. I finished that in Almo in just over a month.

Mark: Wow.

Thomas: Other, the second novel, the second full length novel I ever wrote and published I did in about three months, and that was 61,000 words. Sometimes I can crank a novella out in just [00:20:00] a couple of weeks. Other times it’ll be a couple of months. It just depends because I don’t always just dedicate all my time, all my writing time to just one project. Sometimes there’ll be weeks where I devote an entire week to one project. Then the next week it’s another project and so on. Or I might one project one day, another project another day, back to the first object and the next day, and then like a whole new project the next day. It, it. It just depends. Depends.

Mark: Wow. That’s challenging. I’ve had a few projects on the go before and my mind gets scrambled with all the characters and trying to keep their arcs.

Thomas: I’m racking up some new, like unfinished WIPs. And then, funny enough, I was actually going through some of my [00:21:00] old stuff here in my room today, and I stumbled across an old handwritten manuscript that I never finished from, say, back in either late 2020 or very early 2021.

Mark: So you’re gonna jump back into that.

Thomas: The thought has entered my mind. However, as of just a couple days ago, I already have started a brand new project, which again, just like this was supposed to be nothing more than a short story and is, and now my brain’s trying to turn into a goddamn novel.

Mark: That’s not, do you see that as a, a bad problem to have or do you see that as like a gift of, it’s great that you can [00:22:00] turn something small into something that big.

Thomas: I think it is kind of cool. I, I think it helps make for a funny story in of itself. Sometimes though it does depend on whether I’m trying to get. If I was trying to write for a specific project, like an anthology or even a collaborative project, and it was just supposed to be like a short story, like something no bigger than 10 or 12,000 words and now I’ve done turned the damn thing into 30,000 word or better novela or novel, and I’m like, well, shit, now I gotta come up with something completely new

Mark: yeah, yeah, I could. I could see that as a problem. Yeah.

Thomas: Yeah, sometimes, sometimes.[00:23:00]

Mark: I have a Patreon member ask this question, how do you want someone to feel after they read your book? And are you happy if somebody is spooked or do you want them to be terrified after they’re done?

Thomas: When it comes to this book especially, I’m going to basically parrot what William Friedkin said in interviews concerning the film of the Exorcist. This with this book. You’ll get into it. You’ll get out of it. What you go into it with, if you go into this as a story of good, ultimately triumphing over seemingly insurmountable evil, evil or triumphing over ins seemingly insurmountable [00:24:00] odds. Then that’s what you’ll get out of it. You go into this with the sense of gloom and darkness, and that’s all there ever is and will be then that’s what you’ll get out of it with this book will say you will feel a range of emotions. of the reasons this book very quickly became a new favorite child of mine is because of that, and more specifically because I have this thing where if I’m writing a story that story has the [00:25:00] ability to damn near bring me to tears, or in the case of this, actually make my eyes well up with tears when I’m writing it, writing the end of it, or writing parts of it that that cements it. In a special place in my heart. This book Will, this book will get inside of you. I had one of my ARC readers, one of my advanced readers read this book and she blew through it in one night. Then I joined her in a TikTok live, and she was sitting in her car with a glum expression. She looked at me and she said, I just read the end of your book, and I get it. And I’m like, oh. So.

Mark: I [00:26:00] love

Thomas: book will terrify you because again, it is probably the most genuinely terrifying or genuinely creepy book I’ve written of all 16, but you will feel more than just fear reading this, and that was by design.

Mark: Yeah. As we wrap up, what advice would you give someone who has just published their first book? Because you were there many years ago now, but what advice would you give to someone who’s just kind of having published their first book? What do they do?

Thomas: Keep writing any, so I know this wasn’t entirely the question, but any advice I have to anyone who is seeking to be an author or a writer, the only advice [00:27:00] I can ever give you and the only advice I feel like anyone should ever pay attention to when it comes to advice and the craft of writing, it’s three words. That’s right. Even shorter than Stephen King’s, whole book or any of the books that other people have written. However, long of short, no. Three words. JFW, just fucking right. Because what you’ll realize is you’ll soon start developing your own style and what works for you and your stories. Everyone else is gonna try and tell you how, how they did it, and that you should do it like that.

But let’s think about this. You do that, then what makes you special?

Mark: Okay. That’s good advice. Just keep writing. Yeah. Where can listeners find your [00:28:00] book?

Thomas: Allison’s tier is currently available on pre-order on Amazon. It will release on October 31st in ebook and paperback. And if everything goes according to plan audiobook, because yes, I do have an audiobook for this in the works. And the last I heard from my narrator, she had just completed recording of chapter 12.

Mark: That’s great. Congratulations and audio book is a lot to get, produced.

Thomas: Yeah, so it, and it will be releasing on ku at the time, at this time, I also will have potentially copies, paperback copy is going up on my personal web store, [00:29:00] www.corpschildsanctuary.com/shop. I will potentially be having signed paperbacks going up on the store. So there will be that, although I will have to emphasize US shipping only. I cannot ship internationally. I’m sorry, but I can’t.

Mark: That’s understandable. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. This has been great. I’ve really enjoyed learning more about Allison’s tears in that process. If you don’t mind sticking around for a few extra minutes, we’re gonna go into the lightning round after the show.

Thomas: Of course.

Mark: Thanks again.

Thanks for listening and make sure you’re following the show so you don’t miss episode 16 with Maria Franklin, author of the Psychological Thriller. I don’t like Mondays.

We talk about how a Monday morning moment on a Trane platform sparked the story, why she outlines just [00:30:00] enough to stay flexible, and how she built a 50 reader early feedback team to sharpen each draft. I wanna go deeper. You can get early access bonus content, and the after show with rapid fire questions, plus the chance to ask future guests your own.

Over on Patreon, there’s even a free tier with extra content. The links in the show notes.