Every Fall by Angela Douglas
TPP EP 09

TPP Episode 9 Angela Douglas

Mark: Hello and welcome to the Thriller Pitch Podcast, where you come for the pitch and stay for the story behind the story. I’m your host, Mark P.J. Nadon, and this is episode nine. Every Tuesday I sit down with a different thriller author, if you love discovering new books and the stories behind them hit follow now so you don’t miss the next episode, including next week’s conversation with Aiden Bailey, author of the Action Thriller Blunt Force.

And if you wanna be part of the show, you can join us on Patreon. Members get to submit guest questions, hear episodes early, read bonus stories from past guests, and even grab my own novella, Cognitive Breach. All for the price of a Starbucks coffee. Links are in the show notes.

Today’s guest is Angela Douglas, an award-winning Canadian author who lives in the Okanagan with her husband and kids. Her debut psychological thriller Every Fall was published by Rising [00:01:00] Action Publishing in January, 2025, and her sophomore novel, the Bone Trail will Follow in June, 2026. When she isn’t working or hanging out with her family, she hides in her studio writing her next book.

Mark: Hello, Angela, thank you so much for being here today. Welcome to the podcast.

Angela: Thanks for having me.

Mark: I’m very excited today to get into your book Every Fall and we’re gonna jump right into the pitch.

Angela: Oh dear. Okay, here we go. So every fall is a book about a husband and wife, newly married, the husband Jake is a beat cop in one of the worst crime riddled cities. In the province and his wife, Bree is a newly minted stay at home mom slash former party girl. Everything is going fine with them living in this crime infested town until crime follows Jake home from work, threatening Bree and her son. So they decide to move further afield to [00:02:00] another town outside of Jake’s jurisdiction, hoping that life will get better. Shortly after moving there Jake experiences a severe trauma and loss at the workplace causing him to spiral with guilt and grief, leaving Bree alone at home in a creepy new house where strange things happen. She has bad dreams and the house makes all kinds of noises and they have a hard time figuring out, is it the house? Are they both collectively losing their minds or have the bad guys found them.

Bree, isolated and struggling must protect her children from the one person she thought would always keep them safe. Every fall will keep you on the edge of your seat.

Mark: I love that. Thank you. Yeah. A really, really good book. I really enjoyed it. Thank you for sending me a copy. This one, you know, I, I give myself a week for every podcast episode to try and read the book. And I was done like three days early on this book because it really was a page turner. I, I needed to know what was happening and we’ll get into the psychological versus the supernatural side of it in a little bit.

But I just wanted to [00:03:00] say I really, really enjoyed the book. So thank you for saying that alone.

Angela: course.

Mark: So let’s get into where did this book idea come from?

Angela: That is an excellent question. I had this idea kicking around in my head for a long time. I am the spouse of a retired police officer, so I have a window into that world, and I’ve also lived in a pretty spooky house, when I had my first child. So I thought, oh wow, how wild would it be if you combined, both types of drama together what these people are going through individually and what can happen when you’re in law enforcement.

Mark: And was there a moment in your life that shaped, a plot point or a scene in the story?

Angela: Not really. Maybe a few creepy dreams. You know, when you’re a new parent, you’re not sleeping at all.

And so, you know, add in a shift, working husband and a baby that doesn’t sleep and, you’re just disoriented. So, probably the dreams I would say.[00:04:00]

Mark: And how long did it take you to write the book? Was he retired when you started this, the book journey, and

Angela: yes, he was. I mean, it started in my head. As you know, most of our stories start in our, our head and our dreams and our sleep and all that kind of stuff. But I actually started writing it in 2019, so almost six years total.

Mark: Wow. And what was that journey like? Was it challenging full of like research or was it a lot of thinking? How did that journey play out?

Angela: It was a long process for a lot of reasons I hadn’t written in a really long time. I was a realtor at the time, and so I was working a lot and I had this idea that I wanted to write. So when I moved to a new city and I had no clients anymore, I had some free time. So I started jotting it down and realized I don’t know what I’m doing.

I’ve written small, short stories I’ve written, you know, articles and, and that sort of thing for any jobs that I’ve had, but I’ve never attempted to write a novel before, so it was very overwhelming and I would never [00:05:00] recommend doing it. The way I did this one, I wrote it all out of order, because I would get excited about an idea or a part of the story or a scene, and then I would jot that out and then I would start writing some of the darker, more traumatic stuff, and then I’d need to take a break.

So it was a lot of stop and go and jumping around. So when I was done the first draft, which I wouldn’t even call it, that, I would say the first whatever, right amount, amount of words, it was all out of order and it was very overwhelming trying to slot it into place. So the first version that I wrote in 2019 is light years away from the final product, but it was pretty cool the first time to ever type the end on a novel length manuscript.

Mark: I bet. Yeah, that’s always a good moment to finish every book. And you have another one coming up right?

Angela: I do. Yeah. The bone trail comes out in June of 2026, and it’s different characters, standalone. It’s a, a locked room mystery slash suspense.[00:06:00]

Mark: Awesome. So would you call yourself a cancer or a plotter or, I guess somewhere in between. ’cause you’re, I mean, what you mentioned with jumping scenes is very unusual. I don’t hear that very often. I can, I can understand it though. ’cause I’ve always wondered if you could do that, if you were super inspired by a scene.

If I could write that scene because it’s like vivid and emotional and, and full of power, especially when you’re thinking about it. ’cause you’re excited about it, but then you gotta go fill in the rest of this stuff. Which, like you said is, is quite a challenge. So with this book and then with your next book, what was that process like?

Obviously Pantsing to start with ’cause you’re just kind of writing scenes and then putting it together. Did you go have to go back and then outline the whole thing?

Angela: So I’ve written four books. The, there’s this one, one coming out, and then I’ve written two more and I’ve learned a lot. So this one took six years. The second took two. And the other ones I would say, you know, about a year, give or take. So I do have a better idea and I’m more of a plotter now because I see the need for it.

Does the book [00:07:00] look anything like the original outline? Almost never. I think that having a you know, a path or maybe even a maze kind of like mapped out so that you know the highlights of what you’re gonna hit is good. And then if the story takes you somewhere else while you’re writing, go with it. I would never go in as blind as I did the first time. But I didn’t know what I didn’t know. And since then I’ve taken lots of, you know, writing courses and I’ve had editor feedback and all of those kinds of things that help shape you in positive and difficult ways. But yeah definitely I would not be pantsing again. The only time that I’ve done that is that if I have one of those scenes really tickle me that I have to write it down. Then I might do that and then slot it in later. But I am always working with some sort of an outline now, because I just, I don’t wanna be that lost ever again.

Mark: Yeah, I kind of did the same thing. Well, I, yeah, I guess I’ve been all over the place, but now I do more outlining. As well [00:08:00] leading up to it. So I have, but then the characters do what they’re gonna do. I

Angela: do what they’re gonna do

Mark: almost every podcast episode I record, we get into that, that little moment where we talk about that characters just do what they’re gonna do. It’s so universal for writers that it, it’s funny that it happens to all of us because we’re character driven, I guess you could say. And we let the characters drive the story rather than writing the plot and let the plot drive the story. Which, I mean some authors do and, and they’re still can be really good books, but. Character stories are some of my favorite stories.

Angela: Me too.

Mark: So it’s called a psychological thriller, but it crosses sub genres. Why the supernatural? Because you could have gone, I mean, if I was gonna list like all the sub-genres you might be in, I, you know, it is psychological, supernatural crime, domestic, like it could kind of fit into a lot of little places.

Angela: I know.

Mark: So what came first in all these ideas? Was it, was it the domestic side, the supernatural. And what made you think. Oh, I should combine these. Or maybe it came at the same time anyway.

Angela: It did it, it came. I never set out to [00:09:00] write something that was so blended that some people love it and other people go, what was that? Because my whole idea was that these, you know, young parents, they’re overtired, they’re both going through their own types of trauma, which come along with symptoms similar to a real haunting. So I thought, wouldn’t it be neat to highlight what it would be like if the house was haunted or not? And these people are suffering and not talking to each other. So it’s very isolating, upsetting, and it could be, I guess, the idea that a real haunting is less difficult than some of the stuff that comes along with these mental health issues was the main reason for me tangling so much up together and what better vessel than to, you know, add some crime and those sorts of other things. I’ve even heard like a touch of horror, maybe just one or two. One or two, a little dark.

Mark: Yeah, And I like that. In your acknowledgements, you mentioned the trauma being the [00:10:00] trauma of what they were going through and being just, or worse than the trauma of whatever the supernatural was. ’cause they weren’t sure what was going on and I certainly felt that through the novel.

When you finished the book, did you go back and have to think about. How you paced both to put more emphasis on one or the other. When I was reading, I think I was more into the domestic side and their relationship and just what the hell Jake was thinking and doing and driving me nuts even though it was true to character.

That side got me probably really like you aimed for harder and then her, you know, PPD and that probably hit me harder than then the supernatural, although I wanted to know the conclusion, of course, you know, like, what was this? And I got that in the end.

Angela: Nope, that’s good. That’s exactly what I had hoped for, was just the story of these two people living relatively normal lives and suffering really common things that maybe weren’t as talked about back when the book took place. And hopefully a little bit more now and then, the, [00:11:00] you know, perspective haunting the maybe. Was it or wasn’t? It was supposed to be sort of a, a side character, but I had varying opinions when I first gave it to beta readers and editors where some people wanted more from some parts and more from others, which I guess is the risk that you take when you write something that’s cross genre.

But in the end, I really saw that those two needed to go together.

So, I’m glad that you were , got more outta that one side. ’cause that was my initial intent even though they’re all, it’s all pretty scary actually.

Mark: Yeah, I know it’s. That’s what made it a page turner is the the cross between the two really is, has helped me turn the page because all of a sudden there was this story in these women and I’m trying to think like, oh, is this gonna have something to do with the ghost? Or is this, you know, about the domestic side or what?

So yeah, it was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. And given your husband’s background is now a retired police constable. So you have, as [00:12:00] a constable’s wife, you’ve lived a lot of, probably what your character is going through or what Brie had gone through and how much research went into, into the police side of it. ’cause that felt really, I’ve known a lot of police officers. I’ve wanted to be one for a long time. So I’ve hung out with a lot of police officers in my youth. And, and what you described in the book and what I’ve heard of the stories. ’cause even up north, you know, we have the OPP here that get detached to tiny little northern towns that have it really tough.

Just like in your book, RCMP. So how much research was involved in figuring that angle out? Or was it just, yeah, I know this stuff because I lived it.

Angela: Yeah, I didn’t have to do a ton of research. I wrote it first and then I fact checked for authenticity and had to tweak a few terms. I mean, I read a lot of thrillers too, and of course a lot of the thrillers I read are American, so even some of that was kind of sneaking in. There, even though I’m very familiar with policing up here and I do have a few friends who are still members who are able to look at [00:13:00] that for me.

And then just do, I mean, I have a resource right in my house, which is pretty, uh, pretty handy. Um, yeah.

Mark: And was there research to the ghost and haunting side, like the, I can’t remember the name of the business that they go, well, I don’t wanna give away the story, but let’s, let me keep this to general question research on haunting

Angela: Yeah, so I’ve always been interested in it, like from a little girl. I liked reading spooky stories and I’ve always been interested in the, you know, is there, isn’t there? So I didn’t really need to do a ton of research that wasn’t stuff I’d already kind of cruised by. But the, I do reference a paranormal society and there is one in BC that will come, to, I’m sure there’s several across Canada, but they will come to your house and see if there’s something going on there.

Mark: That’s so interesting.

Angela: Yeah,

Mark: Yeah, I love that. I was wondering, I, I knew I had to ask if that was real or not. ’cause I was like, wow, that sounds like it could be real, but it also sounds like it, it could [00:14:00] be fiction, but wow. I would, so, I mean, I, I’m getting sidetracked a little bit, but what, what do they do? Like this business?

Angela: I don’t know. I didn’t have them come over, but I did.

Mark: Okay. You didn’t check your own house.

Angela: Yeah, I’m sure they do. Probably, you know, a quick look or a once over, I don’t know if it’s like, you know, where you see them spend the night and they’ve got infrared cameras and stuff like that. Um, but if, if I had that happen in the book, then I would’ve definitely had to do some more research and have a call with them to see what they actually do. But they didn’t end up coming to the house, so I was able to leave it there.

Mark: Yeah. No, that’s fair. Yeah, no, I, I pictured like Ghostbusters, like, I don’t know what they had, like these suits on, but yeah, I don’t, of course I want to see Scooby.

How did you know that the story was ready? So once you finished the drafts and as challenging as it was, that may have made it even more challenging to know. Is this book ready? And, and this is traditionally published. So you went to a public or an agent with it, I guess. How did you know it was [00:15:00] ready?

Angela: I didn’t, I had no clue what I was doing. So i, wrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it and I thought, oh my gosh, I dunno what I’m doing. So I hired a freelance editor, which I highly recommend, even though I know, it’s not always affordable, especially if you haven’t, you know, written a book before. But I learned a lot through that process that, you know, you have a lot of good stories, a lot of good information here, but I had to string it along a little bit better. I had to cut out some things that I really liked and I thought were really cool, but didn’t really have much to do with the story. So all of those kinds of things along the way. And then I did another round of edits with the same editor who then said, okay, now this is ready. So I didn’t know. Now I can recognize it in my own writing, if I’m ready or getting close, at least to send it to beta readers or whoever else. But at the time I had no clue how many drafts and, and how many rounds of edits had to go into it before I could even query. And then I was querying agents for quite a long time. Lots and lots and [00:16:00] lots of rejections. Piles and piles and piles and piles. I was getting close, like lots of falls out, lots of really good feedback.

And in the end I didn’t end up getting an agent. I went direct to a publisher. And, even when they called and gave me the offer, I didn’t realize that that was happening on, on the call. I was just like, oh, okay, let’s talk about my book. And then, and then the rest is, the rest is history.

Mark: Wow. Well congratulations for sticking that out. ’cause I know that’s a process rejections and a lot of people just let it go. But the, you know, when you, you take that feedback, you take it to heart, you get better feedback. Did you end up adjusting the story based on that feedback? Was it there any adjustments or it was just…

Angela: With this book, it was really hard because there were so many subplots that all of my feedback was slightly different. People liked different elements of it, so it was difficult to figure out where to go next. Ultimately, I did make some changes that I was okay with. I didn’t quite love. [00:17:00] And then when I got picked up by my publisher as they were doing, ’cause then you do lots more rounds of edits, they actually said, Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if you did this?

And I was like, I did that. I already have it. So I was able to put it back in and and it was a little bit more the way that I initially wanted it to be. So it worked out really well. That doesn’t always happen , but it was nice to be able to put something I liked back in there.

Mark: Are you able to talk about that or is it a spoiler?

Angela: It’s a spoiler.

Mark: Okay. Okay. Maybe we’ll after the show, ’cause I need to know.

Angela: Of course. Of course.

Mark: What went back in. We’ll talk off. Yeah. Okay. So I wanna talk about Jake a little bit. Was he hard to write? Yeah. ‘Cause he’s, I mean, he’s like, I hated him for a long time. So there were moments in this story and I’m sure it’s, but this is, you know, you’re, you’re being true to life, uh, of a lot of these experience. You had to tell this story authentically, which put him and you, I mean, I know you, it ended well. I don’t wanna give spoilers, [00:18:00] but, I, I had a hard time with Jake for a long time throughout the book because of the decisions he was making and, and how he was, treating Brie and stuff.

How did you write that? Like, did you find, were you worried that people were gonna go, i’m, I’m putting this book down because this guy, I just can’t read this guy anymore.

Angela: I think it’s bliss that this was my first book because I didn’t think about any of that. I never even thought what it would feel like to get rejections and get reviews. I just started writing and, I wrote the book, the best way I could in the most authentic way that I thought it could be in that situation. So I took. PTSD and postpartum, and I picked some of the absolute worst case scenarios to give to these people. I think in re in real life, I, I don’t think there are that many Jakes and, and I don’t know if you know people, many people experienced some of the extremes that Brie did, at least privately and then she didn’t get a lot of help ’cause she had a Jake at home.

So I think that [00:19:00] nowadays people talk more and they have more support and they’re not quite as extreme. But I didn’t think about what the impact of the extreme nature of the behavior would’ve done. And I, a lot of my, if you take a little peek at my reviews, you’ll see that there’s a lot of people who are not team Jake.

And I had hoped that there would be a little bit of empathy for him just given that some of the stuff that was happening wasn’t necessarily his fault, but in the end, you know, yeah, it’s not, it’s not great and I have to say, it’s not my husband. So many people, so many people ask, and mine’s lovely and we’re still married.

Mark: That’s good.

Angela: but yeah, there, there are worst case like you do with most fiction, you, you know, you use the extremes for the story.

Mark: Yeah. Well that’s why I ask ’cause absolutely. But I know like when I’m writing, sometimes I’m like, am I taking this character too far? Into almost a villain. And I do write villains, but [00:20:00] villains are easier in a sense because I’m not trying to make them, they’re hard to write because of what they’re doing that’s dark.

But I know they’re a villain and the reader knows they’re a villain. Whereas in Jake’s case, he’s almost, he’s not meant to be. But depending on your history and your, your own trauma, I suppose he very much can be someone you don’t like very much. Which has kind of happened to me. I mean, I’m glad like it, you know, well, I don’t wanna spoil anything, but, uh,

Angela: no, fair, fair enough. And you

Mark: I, I like the book in the end.

Angela: oh good, he was worse in earlier iterations. And somebody asked me if he was the villain. And of course, because I was pretty new to writing a novel, I didn’t think about those things that now I think about intentionally when I’m writing. So he was worse in earlier drafts. Oops.

Mark: Oh wow, okay.

Angela: Yeah.

Mark: It was worse. Well, so who was the most fun to write in that book. I mean, my personal favorite was Tammy,

Angela: Tammy’s my favorite character, hands down, and she is [00:21:00] one of those characters that came out of nowhere. So I just was writing, writing, writing, and I, writing things out of order. And as I was stringing it together, this character popped out and she’s a, you know, a accumulation of a, a pile of different things, but her coming into Bri’s life when she did and her levity was just a lot of fun to play with.

Mark: And I like that. It, it, I found it really balanced the book well because it had gotten so dark that it needed a little light. And Tammy was that perfect light to, to put in there, to, to give like a breath to, to the, the bigger discussion and things that were going on. Yeah. So we are, we are getting close to time.

I’m gonna wrap up with a few questions for those authors that are listening to this show. What advice would you give to someone who just published their first or second book?

Angela: Just publish. Hmm, hmm. Lots of advice. What shall I say? Be kind to yourself is probably the first thing. It is a [00:22:00] rollercoaster of best, absolute best and then surprises. So I don’t wanna say the worst, but just surprises. Like, you know, reading, reading your review, you get these reviews that will bring tears to your eyes that you’ll print off and hang on your wall. Please do that. So take all of the really nice things people say and hang onto that even though if you get 10, five star reviews, it’s the one star that you repeat in your head over and over again when you’re writing. Don’t do that. And then like everyone else says, shut it down. Don’t look at all of the reviews, don’t obsess over them. Better.

Easier said than done because I absolutely did read all of mine and obsess over them, but at some point, shut it down. And also don’t get wrapped up in the publishing, launching marketing aspect, which is extremely hard to say because you need to do that. You need to market your book. You need to be able to pitch your book on the fly. You need to be able to do all of those things to sell your book and to keep going. But most [00:23:00] importantly. Write the next book because if you get bogged down in those things, it can kind of take away a little bit from the magic and the joy of creating. So start working on another book, or even better if you work on that book before the first one comes out, then you have something fun to play with and work on, you know, while you’re having some days that aren’t necessarily the best, but also. Enjoy every minute you will be, you know, I don’t know about you, but I wanted to write since I was seven years old. So I have always pictured myself, you know, signing books and going to launches and, you know, seven years old, it was all, you know, in the bag. And sometimes now I will be sitting in a bookstore going, wow, this, this is pretty cool. I wrote a freaking book. So celebrate your wins. And keep writing. Even if you, you know, even if it’s not great or you’re not in a perfect writing mood, just, just keep, keep going forward. That’s the only way. Forward, forward, forward.[00:24:00]

Mark: Oh, that’s great. Thank you. I really like the print out your five still or the good reviews and put them on your wall not to forget. I love that advice. I haven’t heard that before, but I may just go do that.

Angela: You need a happy pile.

Mark: It does.

Angela: see it.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah, I could see that helping a lot because it does, it is, uh, it can be a tough business. And we do like to, to, to look at the bad reviews and I don’t know why we, we are this way.

Angela: And you fixate and you hear that one word, that one negative word replays in your head. But why? When there’s so many nice things, focus on the nice or try to.

Mark: I love that. Thank you.

Angela: Of course,

Mark: If you could pick one thing that you felt led to your success so far, what would it be?

Angela: Being extremely stubborn. Once I knew that I was going to spend this much time doing something, I was gonna just keep going until it got out there. Whatever way. Who knows if the, you know, the querying [00:25:00] process had gone on for another six months or so. It was close to a year. I think it was 10, 10 months before I got picked up. I was getting close to shelving it, and then I had already started working on another book. So that’s the other thing, if you feel like your first book or whatever number book isn’t gonna get picked up, you have another one cooking. So just keep, keep stuff cooking. So yeah, I don’t, I don’t know if my perspective would’ve been much different, the longer it took or the outcome anyways, but I just had no intention on ever giving up.

So if Every Fall, wasn’t it, the bone trail was gonna be it, and then, you know, the two that are coming after that, you just never know, you know, which one is, is gonna get picked up and, what your, what your path is going to be. Just keep, just keep going.

Mark: Yeah, thank you. And you also never know, like maybe it’s book five that gets picked up, that just hits the market at the right time, but then people still want 4, 3, 2, and one, and they’ve already been written. So you never know

Angela: And then they’re already there waiting for you. That’s the best

Mark: yeah, exactly. Because the hardest part [00:26:00] is getting in the door, I think. And then once you’re, once you’re in the door, in the traditional side of publishing, I’m indie published, but on the traditional side, I imagine it, once you’re in the door, it helps that they’ll listen a little more to what’s your next book idea. And if you have other books there,

Angela: Yeah, I hope so.

Mark: very helpful.

Angela: I’m in the trenches with book three, so we’ll see.

Mark: Yeah. That’s awesome. Congratulations.

Angela: Thank you.

Mark: So where can people find you and get your book and learn more about you?

Angela: My book is for sale anywhere books are sold. So chapters Indigo, Barnes and Noble. Any small indie stores online. If you’re looking for signed copies, there’s quite a few, Indigos in BC in the lower mainland on the island where there’s some sign copies that are still there. It’s also on amazon and, and other places online in ebook, print and audiobook.

Mark: Oh, nice. The audio book. That’s great. All right, well thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. If you don’t mind [00:27:00] hanging out after the show, we got a couple of bonus questions for our newsletter subscribers who get the a few extra questions. Thank you so much for being here. This was a lot of fun.

I love learning more about Every Fall. Listeners you gotta go check it out, get the book, read it. If you like dark psychological, you are gonna enjoy it.

Angela: Great. Thank you for having me.

Mark: Thanks for listening to episode nine. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to follow the show so you don’t miss episode 10. When I sit down with Aiden Bailey, author of the action Thriller Blunt Force, and if you’d like to go deeper with early access, bonus content, and the chance to ask future guests your own questions, you can join me on Patreon.

The links are in the show notes.