Spy Girls by Joanna Vander Vlugt
TPP EP 13

TPP Episode 13 Joanna Vander Vlugt

Mark: Hello and welcome to the Thriller Pitch Podcast where thriller readers discover new bestselling and award-winning authors, writers get to pick up insights by hearing how others build their stories, and authors get to pitch their next release and share the making of it. If you love finding your next read or hearing, how your favorite books came together, follow the show and stick around.

I’m your host, Mark P.J. Nadon, and this is episode number 13. Today’s guest is Joanna Vander Vlugt author of the spy thriller Spy Girls. Joanna, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you

Joanna: Thank you, mark. There is a lot of work I know that goes behind producing these, so I really appreciate it.

Mark: I have your book here with me, Spy Girls. Thank you for sending me a copy. I [00:01:00] realized actually as I was thinking about this, I think I’ve had books come from more places in the world than I’ve been able to travel.

I had, yours is another one I’ve always wanted to go to BC I think I was born to go in BC ’cause I like to run distances and stuff in the mountains. But here in Ottawa there’s almost no mountain. You can kind of go to like hills, ski hills, but not really mountains. So I’m envious of your end of the full world.

Joanna: Well, we don’t know how to handle snow when we do get it. Okay.

Mark: Fair. So let’s get into the pitch. Pitch me your book. Spy Girls.

Joanna: Okay, Spy Girls. So my heroine Jade Time, she’s a lawyer, and after her sister’s partner has been kidnapped, she is coerced into finding an elusive double agent. She navigates. Political agendas, and she escapes sticky bombs while trying to outplay a [00:02:00] psychotic Russian assassin as she tries to find this double agent. That’s I made it short.

Mark: Yeah, that is short and sweet, but it does summarize that very well. What happens. So thank you.

Joanna: Well, I, I kept thinking about, uh, some of these pitch fast dating, not fast dating sites, but you know what I mean. When you have 10 minutes and you need to pitch to an editor, like a, an agent, so it’s like, okay, do this in one sentence.

Mark: Very good. So where did the story idea come from?

Joanna: Oh wow. Actually, it, you had another guest on, I was listening and we both had similar story ideas. It was, I wrote her name down here. Is it Ox Devere?

Mark: Yep the Yeah. Devil’s Eye.

Joanna: The Devil’s Eye and, I wrote this in, so I published it in 2024. You know how long it takes to write a book? I started it in 2022, [00:03:00] so it it had, at that time, I ugh, I don’t even, I wanna mention this man’s name. Jeffrey Epstein, the human trafficking that was in the news. And then combined with, we had a criminal matter in British Columbia involving a judge being charged with I can’t remember all the charges, but basically what I can what I can vaguely remember is he was going down to the downtown east side and, um, involved with women Okay. And being abusive. And I I think as writers we also try to, in our, in our fictional world, try to bring about justice. And so then that’s [00:04:00] where those two ideas meshed.

And, uh, we had, you know spy events happening in Canada where different, as soon as I started to dig, I found out about how there was a Cissus agent who was selling secrets and I’m just, you know, so it, it’s almost like a serendipity. All these ideas kind of came together and they meshed into Spy Girls.

Mark: How long did it take from, from these ideas into the novel before you started putting like pen to paper? Was it like months of thinking and trying to put it together in your mind before you put it onto paper?

Joanna: Well, kind of you have dogs and I have dogs. So every morning when I’d be walking those dogs, right, thinking be thinking about this story. And at the time when I started writing it. Yeah, I’d say [00:05:00] at least a year of the I ideas coming together. And I wasn’t a plotter when I wrote Spy Girls. I have since become a bit of a plotter and it was just writing the story and fleshing it out. And I even had a third storyline in there, which my editor said, this is going nowhere. So either you work on this storyline, or we gotta get rid of it, right. So, yeah, it, I’d say a year before and during the writing process, I started to refine the refine, the storyline.

Mark: Did you pants this book? Did you just get down and start? And just start writing the book rather than having all the notes and the characters kind of prebuilt.

Joanna: I have notes but I did not plot it. I was a pantser was I have, which from listening to previous [00:06:00] episodes, I’m not the only pantser who has learned. Okay, you gotta save some time here.

Mark: yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And why in Canada? For, for the plot. I know a lot of, and I’ve been guilty of this myself as I set it in the US a story because I know most market is US for purchasing books, so I try and build it there. But you chose, you chose Canada and I’m just curious as to why.

Joanna: It’s because of of my heroin. I worked in the prosecutor’s office for 13 years and then I worked in the office of the police complaint commissioner for another 10. And you’re always told write what you know. So I wasn’t going to try to learn the American justice system. Like I, I, I know what it’s like to work in a prosecutor’s office. [00:07:00] I have a connection in the prosecutor’s office so she can, because laws change, she can look, she read what I had written and made changes saying, oh the law has changed. It’s not this section number or, you know, this is our new process. We don’t ref refer to judges now as his honor is his honor or his worship anymore. Right. So the last thing I think a writer wants is someone to pick up their book and say she’s got her facts wrong, you know, so that’s why I kept it in Canada. I kept it in a Canadian, with a Canadian criminal justice system. Just ’cause I thought I, this, I, I, yeah, I, I didn’t want a mistake. I, you know, of trying to figure out the American justice system. So that’s, that’s why I kept it in Canada. Yeah.

Mark: And how true to life was the setting throughout the book? That they’re, they’re going through and exploring [00:08:00] like the streets, the boats…

Joanna: yeah, so Victoria, I lived there for 22 years, and that setting is so legitimate because how Jade walks to work in the morning. That is how I walk to work, going over that bridge. Going down the galloping goose. All of that was legitimate. And I’m, I’m serious. That galloping goose, you walk on one way, ’cause you’ve got bikes zipping past.

Right. And when you come, you came home, you walked on another side because you’ve got bikes zipping past. Right. So, and the Chinatown in Victoria is so cool. Fanan Alley, all of that is legitimate. And, um, yeah, that, that’s all very true. You know? Very true. ’cause [00:09:00] that, like I said, that was my neighborhood.

The boat scene, I remember I was kind of, I was kind of doing like latitude and longitude, and I thought, okay, they went out here and you know, and looking at those locations, what would be the latitude and the longitude, right? Just to make, again, thinking about wanting it to be accurate. Right. So when they go out into the ocean area, that there’s a bit of fiction. Okay. Yeah.

Mark: And what about the motorcycle gang? Is that because that’s very unique to your story? They’re used as like a security force. They’re the motorcycles in general. You don’t usually see that or don’t read that a lot, so that was very unique and fun. Where did that come from?

Joanna: I like bikes. I don’t own, I do not. I own a scooter. I don’t own a motorcycle. And during [00:10:00] like I illustrate motorcycles. You know, I’ve, I’ve done commissions and I enjoy illustrating motorbikes. In a few weeks I’m going to actually illustrate a boat. A boat. And what I mean by illustrate is I have it’s marker paper and I use what’s called copic art markers. And that’s how I do the illustrations, like the illustrations in the front of Spy Girls. That’s one of my illustrations. Right. And, it was,

Mark: I’ll just hold that up for views. We’re actually watching this. This is the one here? Yeah.

Joanna: yeah. Yeah. And I remember like, again I think it was T.D. Severin who I was listening to him where he was saying how he had written his book about 30 years ago in the nineties.

Mark: Yeah. And

Joanna: And I had a bit of a similar path where I stopped writing and I was creating these illustrations. So when I came back to writing [00:11:00] and I was thinking about Jade and I was thinking about these characters and I just, I remember looking up once at one of my illustrations and I thought she rides a motorcycle.

You know? ‘Cause there are a lot of women out there who ride bikes who aren’t necessarily in a gang. And I thought, okay, let’s take this up a notch. Right. So that’s where that came

Mark: That was fun.

Joanna: Yeah.

Mark: And you mentioned, you mentioned like the facts and getting the facts right, and you also brought in CSIS in the RCMP, which is Canadian. But you brought in the CIA or ex-CIA. Why, where did that come from to bring in a, a US spy agency?

Joanna: Well what was fun with that is again,, I think of writing and serendipity because I was interviewed, oh, while I was writing Spy Girls and there were two, there were two men [00:12:00] on the interview and I had made, oh, it was this embarrassing joke because the one interviewer didn’t know exactly where I was from. He knew BC, but he didn’t know. Okay. Vancouver Island. And I just, I was joke. I thought, God, don’t try to joke. I thought I was being funny. And I said, yes. I live on Vancouver Island, just kinda lying, laying low. I said, who knows? All I I, I could be a CIA agent, you know, just laying low. Well, what. I didn’t know was the second man on that interview who was interviewing me Joe Goldberg was a resigned CIA action, off, not officer operative. He and I started talking and he had said that If I wanted to, he would review Spy Girls specifically [00:13:00] for when I mentioned about any sort of CIA operations.

Mark: Oh, cool.

Joanna: So, uh, yeah, so after I kind of like took my, you know, put out of my mouth in my comment right. I was very happy and he’s an author too, Joe Goldberg, and, you know. Yeah, it, it, I remember, ’cause I had originally written that, um, the character Jan Hoffman, that he had retired right from the CIA and I remember Joe saying to me, no, we don’t retire, we resign. And I went,

Mark: okay.

Joanna: okay. Noted. Right. So, yeah.

Mark: Oh, that’s very cool.

Joanna: Yeah.

Mark: So we’re gonna jump through a little bit, talk a little bit about characters, and one of the things that struck me in this novel is that you chose to go from third person to first person. First person with, with Jade, which, who’s your main character, and third person with, with pretty much anybody else. Why that [00:14:00] choice? I had never seen that. And I just recently did an interview which hasn’t come out yet with Steve Stratton who also did that, and it was the first time and he shared his inspiration. But I’m curious to know why you chose to switch that point of view. ’cause it’s not something you see very much.

Joanna: Yeah that was a risk. and so your listeners know. I do it in parts. Okay. So I, when I do the big switch into first person with my heroin, that is a, it’s like, it’s a different part of the book. So you open the book and it’s part one and that’s where it’s in third person. Right. And, what I want, what I love doing as a writer is I almost like when the reader is reading, I want to almost give them information ahead of time of the heroine. [00:15:00] So it’s, it’s whether it’s the fores, it’s not even foreshadowing, but when they get to the heroin and she’s starting to investigate and get pulled into the scenario, I want them to be thinking, oh God, when are the paths gonna cross? Going to cross, right? Because you, you kind of know what the bad guy, what his plans are, and I just, want the reader to, when they get into Jade’s head to be wondering, okay, when is she going to, when, when are they going to collide? You know, when, when is the bad guy’s motives and the heroin’s motives going to collide. Okay. And that’s why I did that. And, it was fun for me, and I hope the reader found it fun. You know, it’s, it, it’s definitely a little different. Mm-hmm.

Mark: Well, it wasn’t completely like, there was a little bit of back and forth, but it wasn’t as jarring as happening, [00:16:00] like every chapter or something, which was nice.

I liked it. I didn’t find it. It, oh, I guess because I just read Steve Stratton, who. I, it did jar me with his book, but now that I kind of got a feel for it and then I went to yours, I was like, oh, okay, this is fine.

Joanna: Yeah. And I think as long as you’re fair with the reader, you know, ’cause I thought, okay, I, I don’t want them to be thinking. Okay, where are we now? Who am I now? Who am I reading whose head I’m in? So that’s why in the beginning there is part one and it’s third person, and it’s this one character’s point of view. And then we have part two, and then who the most of it then is in the heroine’s point of view. But I definitely separate it so the reader knows Okay, we’re we’re, we’re in someone else’s head right now. Yeah.

Mark: Was that pre-planned? Did you wanted to do that to set up the character? Yeah. Yeah.

Joanna: Yeah, yeah. And it’s, one reader said to me, she summarized it perfectly. [00:17:00] She said, reading Spy Girls is like watching a, a, snowball. Just get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Right? And I thought, yeah, that, that’s, that’s it. Right? Yeah.

Mark: And with Jade, as her, as the story continues, and I’ll try not to give any spoilers, and there are moments where big things happen to her. So things are revealed probably, but like the three quarter of the mark is kind of where I’m referring to from the book. And instead of, ’cause there’s, there’s essentially, there’s two ways you can go about it. You can spend a lot of time in the character’s head, which happens a lot where writers will say, you know, oh, I can’t believe this. Or, you know, this is happening to me, or what do I do now? Or, there’s a lot of that and there’s action where you just, the character’s reactions and, and actions kind of help you understand how they’re processing their trauma and you went with that route, you went, the action route you spent, [00:18:00] to me anyway, you spent less time, she wasn’t in her head so much worried about herself or everything. She was just go, go, go. It was, it was just constantly action, which I also don’t see a whole lot, but I liked it.

Was that, is that your, do you feel like that’s your writing or was that a choice to just spend less time in her head and show that? Oh, she’s, when there’s a moment where she’s like, teach me, teach me where she wants to, self-defense. Like, no, teach it now. I, I need it now. And that’s like you showing that there’s this trauma that she needs to process, but it was through action. It was alive and fun, which was different than her and her brain saying, or her, to the reader in her mind saying, this is terrible. How do I survive this kind of thing.

Joanna: Yeah. But I wanted the urgency. That’s I think that’s the biggest thing. I wanted the urgency and like you said, teach me now because, she’s, there’s a lot at stake for her. And I also like writing action [00:19:00] scenes. It’s, there’s a scene in, in the beginning, involving a judge, and there’s a young, like you, you learn about a young female, and that scene was much harder to write than any of the action scenes. Like there’s an action scene on a boat involving Jade, where she’s just about harmed. And that scene was easier to write than anything involving the judge. And, yeah, and I remember the fights, like s the, without getting anything in away, a fight scene near the end involving Jade and that was, I don’t wanna say fun, right? ’cause it’s a, it gets a bit brutal. Okay. You know, but it’s, it’s basically, you know, you know, you’re sitting there and I’m thinking, okay, if I’m fight, like literally I remember thinking [00:20:00] if I’m fighting for my life, what would I do? Right? So,

Mark: Yeah. Was that the hardest moment to write? That departs with the judge for you? Yeah. Yeah.

Joanna: Yes. And it was, again, it was Ox Devere who you interviewed.

Mark: Yeah. I think that’s how you

Joanna: Yeah. And

Mark: Yeah.

Joanna: yeah, where she had said with some of the scenes she had written, she needed I am, I’ve gotta quota. ’cause it was perfect. A brain bath, you know? And I thought, yeah, I, I get it like that. You ask good questions and it’s, it’s been fun listening to your podcast ’cause you know, I’m, I’m like, Uhhuh Uhhuh. Yeah.

Mark: Was there research you had to do for the villain? Like for how you portrayed the justice and, and what he had done? Like you mentioned, Epstein. [00:21:00] Was there any research behind that and, and things that had happened that kind of came together to make that scene?

Joanna: I don’t believe I did research for that given what we would’ve seen on the news. And yeah, and given some of what I’ve been exposed to when I worked for Crown Council. It’s almost like I hate to say this, but it’s almost like I’m gonna need a brain bath. Like, Ox said, almost like letting your mind going to the worst possible areas of human behavior. Okay.

And I don’t think there is anything a writer can imagine that hasn’t happened in real life. Okay. So I wouldn’t say that there was [00:22:00] research. I could not research that man. Right. I drew upon more of what I’ve been exposed to when I worked at Crown Council.

But having said that, now when I think about it, it was more the judge and looking up articles and reading articles about what this judge had done. Okay, so there there was some research, tiny bit of research.

Mark: Okay. Did that judge also have an accomplice like you had? Was that part of that story or that was, you made that up with the, I mean, I don’t, no spoilers, but yeah. Okay. You made that part up. Okay. Listeners will have to have to read the book to know what I’m talking about there. Okay.

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: Did you ever consider writing, when you started that book, writing his point of view at all? Like the justice’s point of view? Like a moment in time where to almost set up a very dark moment, or you [00:23:00] didn’t want to?

Joanna: Oh God. Not at that time. No. No, it’s, but it’s weird, Mark, because I have just written a short story for an anthology. A call out for an anthology and there’s a very bad character, in that book. And he not in that book, in that story. And he, how he treats people is just so despicable. And I drew upon, let’s just say some, some politicians in our current current world. It’s, it was weird to go down there and I, I, I wonder now if, now the reason why I went that route is because the motivation is different. Okay. With Spy Girls it’s more about my heroine, [00:24:00] you know, getting justice. Whereas in this other short story I had just written, it was trying to.

Show what this despicable character in this short story was doing.

Right. So I guess, yeah, my, my motives were different. Did I answer your question? But

Mark: yeah, yeah. So you probably needed a brain bath after that one as well then. Yeah. Yeah. Because writing villains can be gross like that. Absolutely. And trying to justify their dirty deeds. Couple more questions for you. Go. Moving to kind of a writer focused couple of questions to finish this interview off with. What advice would you give someone who just published their first or second book?

Joanna: Keep writing. Keep writing. Yeah. Uh, there’s a few things I’d say to someone who’s just published. It would be, start your next one. Like So I remember after [00:25:00] I first published the first book, the Unraveling, when I was coming near the end, I had an idea already for the second one, but I told myself, give yourself a month’s break. And actually that’s pretty much what I do. And usually by the end of the month I’m just like, I’m. I’m like, okay, I’m ready. Right. Okay. I wanna do this. So just give yourself a, a month’s break or give yourself a little bit of a break, but be, we’re thinking about the next book. Okay. Definitely writing notes or you know, just keep writing, keep writing. And don’t look at stats. That’s the other big thing I’ve found is don’t look at stats with regards to if you’re going traditional, how many traditional, like how many traditional publishers pick up new authors? Don’t, don’t the, the stats will make you not want to write. I do not look at writing stats.

Mark: That’s fair

Joanna: Yeah. And, what would, I had one more, [00:26:00] which I can’t remember right now, but, yeah, keep writing. Definitely keep writing and and pick whatever path you want. You know, if you self-publish and then decide you wanna try traditional publishing, that’s okay. Like you don’t have to stay on the same path, you know?

Mark: yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of hybrid now that are, that are kind of moving back and forth between the two. That has made it acceptable in this day and age. Yeah. And where can readers find more about your books and purchase your book or find more about you?

Joanna: Well, more about me would be joannavandervlugt.com. That’s my website. And the easiest way is just going on Amazon. That’s the easiest way. Whether you’re an American listener or a Canadian listener, if you go on Amazon, you will see my book. Yeah.

Mark: Okay. Well thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. I really appreciate it. This has been a lot [00:27:00] of fun. If you don’t mind sticking around for the after show, we’re changing it up a little bit, so we’re gonna be doing a rapid fire round for the after show, just, to change it up and have a little bit of fun. Thank you.

Joanna: Well, thank you, Mark. Like I say, I know the work behind work involved behind the scenes.

Mark: Thank you. Thanks for listening to the episode. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to follow the show so you don’t miss episode 14 with Melissa Roos, author of the Romance Thriller, Tennessee Wishes. And if you’d like to go deeper with early access bonus content, the after show with rapid fire questions and the chance to ask future guests your own questions, join me on Patreon. We do have some free tier, giving away free things. The link is in the show notes.