The Memory Foundation
by Amanda West
Season 2 Ep. 13

Amanda: So I then went completely the other way. I did a ton of research. I explained it in kind of minute detail, how the tech would work, and of course that was dreary and that was far too much. So then it was a case of distilling that down. So it was very quick and easy to pick up how it could work as a concept rather than a sort of a technical manual of how you would be strapped in the chair and how it would all work. So for me, it was that balance between this being a story and absolutely story led, but at the same time feeling like it’s very high concept.

Mark: Welcome to the Thriller Writer Lab, where every thriller goes under the microscope, one book at a time. I’m your host, Mark Nadon, and this is where best-selling, award-winning, and emerging thriller authors share the craft, research, and real-world experiences that power today’s most gripping stories.

Joining me today is bestselling author Amanda Reynolds, writing Under the pen name, Amanda West for the book we are talking about today, the speculative thriller, the Memory Foundation. Amanda, thank you so much for being here today

Amanda: Oh, thank you for inviting me. It’s really exciting to be talking about the book with you.

Mark: and thank you. I have received a copy of your book and was able to read it, so I am excited to talk about it. Thank you.

Amanda: Fantastic.

Mark: So let’s start with the pitch. Pitch me the Memory Foundation.

Amanda: Pitch you. It’s always so hard, isn’t it? When you, someone says, pitch me your book. You know, mark as an author, so I, forgive me, I’m gonna read. The pitch to start with. So, um, four guests, one genius scientist, his wife, a mountainous secret facility prone to avalanches. Would you go to the memory foundation to experience the ultimate in destination travel, a chance to relive the best moments of your life, but you might not come back.

So that’s my, my hook,

Mark: Nice.

Amanda: which, which I just worked on this afternoon actually. So you are the first, the first to hear that. Um, so that’s kind of the memory foundation in a, in an elevator pitch. Um,

Mark: Great.

Amanda: my, my new book. Yeah.

Mark: So if we take a step back a little bit from this book, just ’cause I’m curious about you’ve, you, this is not your first book. Even if people look under Amanda West and they’ll see that this is like Amanda West’s first book,

Amanda: Mm.

Mark: many others. This is book seven I believe.

Amanda: Yeah, it that’s true.

Mark: Why the switch from domestic thrillers to taking a chance on a speculative thriller like this one.

Amanda: Yeah. Um, great question. I mean, I, I love all kinds of thrillers and there are so many different sub genres. And the one I’ve kind of concentrated on for my first six published books is Amanda Reynolds, has been very much psychological suspense, which is my first love, my continuing love. I read psychological suspense. I coach it at the novelty where I work as an author, coach, and I love those kind of books. You know, it sort of started with a girl on the Train and Gone Girl and all of those. And my first psychological suspense thriller was published back in 2016, I think it was. So, you know, 10 years, 10 years of, of writing those and loving them and really enjoying them.

But I wanted to do something a bit different, I think for book seven I really wanted to take a step back, reassess the kind of things that I’m interested in reading and writing. And I love reading speculative, high concept realism. I love watching them. You know, they’re sort of Netflix, Netflix binges that you just can’t stop watching and I’d always wanted to write a time travel book and I knew it would just absolutely do my head in if I tried to write a time travel book because they’re so difficult and they’re so complicated. So I thought, what’s a kind of a time travel? Oh, going back in your memory, what if you could go back and you could kind of relive the best, you know, cherry pick the best moments of your life and just re-experience them.

And I suppose that was the germ of the idea. And I had that a really long time ago, probably three or four years ago, and I sort of put it away because I couldn’t quite work out how I would write it. But every now and then, I would talk to people about it as if, if I spoke to other authors or I spoke to my editor or somebody, they would say, yeah, you should write it.

And of course everyone’s, oh, that’s a great idea, but no one’s gonna tell you to write something. No one’s gonna tell you to do something different. So

in the end, I thought, well, I’m gonna take some time and actually properly have a go at writing this idea. And I suppose it was around the time that we all started thinking about the metaverse and AI and the possibilities beyond kind of, uh, own thinking at the time of how we could live other lives and maybe go back.

And there was also a lot about destination travel, kind of really wealthy travelers paying extortion amounts to go to the bottom of the ocean or, you know, go into space. There was all of that going on and I thought, yeah, there’s, there’s two things. There’s like this. Yearning that we all have for nostalgia and going back, but then there’s also this push forward with tech and taking us into new spaces and people who are really wealthy, wanting to be the first, wanting to do something so different.

And I suppose that’s, that’s when books for me, I dunno about you, mark, but when, when I get two things come together, that’s when I think, ah, I think I can write this now. And I wasn’t ready before then. Um, so I did take a year probably even to, to get to that first draft once I decided to do it, and then another year or so before it was ready because it was so different for me and it was such a challenge, but I absolutely loved writing it as well.

And I was glad to have finally done it because with speculative, um, ideas, if you don’t do them then they just happen and they’re not speculative anymore. So you’ve gotta try and get on with it and. And, and, and be a bit forward thinking because as soon as you start doing any kind of research, you discover that it’s already, it’s already happening somewhere, probably anyway.

Mark: Was it, was it like nerve, nerve wracking or scary for you? Jumping into a different genre? Taking the chance, I suppose, with a pen name, which was helpful ’cause it separates your, your

usual name from, uh, you know, from speculative thrillers. But it’s still, it’s still a risk for any author to, to change genres and some do it successfully and some don’t. was that, what was that like as you’re writing it? Does it impact, like how you’re telling your story when you think, well, people who read Amanda Reynolds enjoy this type of story, so I kind of wanna make sure I don’t get too far away from my brand? Or did you just kind of go with like, no, this is the story that I’m ready to write and I’m gonna go with that.

Amanda: Yeah. I think that word brand is really interesting because when you’ve had you know, some, some bestsellers and your kind, you are kind of a brand author and people know you and they’re kind of waiting for the next one that they feel familiar with and you’re doing something different. Yeah. You do feel a bit like, will anybody like this?

Will anybody want to read it?

But I also felt that I, I will definitely go back to psychological thrillist, but I felt that I needed to step away because I didn’t wanna be repeating myself. I wanted a new challenge. I wanted to really push my writing and push myself in a completely different. Direction to make sure that I was producing something that was a challenge to me, but also new and fresh and different.

It was also a little bit market led because the market is constantly looking for new, fresh ideas. So you feel like you want to come up with something that will really appeal to the market as well.

But also book seven, you know, and they’re not, it’s not seven books I’ve written. I’ve probably written 10 or 11.

’cause there were some that didn’t happen. So, you know, you get to a point in your career where you think I really want to be brave and challenge myself but I loved it. I absolutely loved doing it. I really did. And I think in terms of the name change, that was really up to my publishers Crooked Lane. And I said, you know, I don’t mind being Amanda Reynolds.

 I don’t mind being somebody different. And they said, well, we’ll keep the Amanda because then people who know you as Amanda Reynolds and also for me, like promoting it. It’s nice and easy enough to think about another name. Um. But we’ll go with a different surname. So I went with West because that’s my name before I was married many, many years ago. So that is also my identity. So it didn’t feel that strange.

Mark: Oh, that’s a great connection. I hadn’t even thought that about doing something like that. Uh, what kind of challenge did this book present to you as a writer, having written this many books, and you would’ve been in your lane for psychological thrillers, what kind of challenge did this, did this one, like what’s some of the more specific challenges as you’re writing this particular book?

Amanda: Um, for me, one of the challenges was, um, getting the kind of high concept element across to the reader in a way that’s really clear and very. Um, straightforward to kind of take on board as a reader and at the same time make it feel logical, make it feel like it could work. So I think it was the, there, there’s something in the memory foundation called memory flights.

And you go on a memory flight, you don’t ever leave the chair, but you go on a flight, um, back to a memory and it feels entirely authentic and entirely realistic. And for a lot of the writing, I was just like, oh yeah, I’ll work that out later. That’ll be something to do with this. You know how it works. And, uh, I actually submitted a draft where, um, I kind of skimmed over the tech side and I didn’t really explain it all.

I said that it happens, you know, and quite rightly the feedback was, well, we need to understand, you know, we need to feel that this could actually happen. We kind of need to, to know what the process is. So I then went completely the other way. I did a ton of research. I explained it in kind of minute detail, how the tech would work, and of course that was dreary and that was far too much.

So then it was a case of distilling that down. So it was very quick and easy to pick up how it could work as a concept rather than a sort of a technical manual of how you would be strapped in the chair and how it would all work. So for me, it was that balance between this being a story and absolutely story led, but at the same time feeling like it’s very high concept.

But yes, I, I can understand that that could. That could happen. And that was a balance that I was looking for. That took me a little while to work out because in psychological suspense it’s very rooted in the ordinary and the domestic. Um, and this is not, this is very different.

Mark: The technology to cure dementia, which was, was part of the pitch. It’s a fascinating to talk about that, what, what research went into when you’re talking about the tech side and how the tech might work, but not just the tech, but the idea of what research went into, like trying to cure dementia.

Amanda: Um, yeah, for me it was a very natural thing to pair with the idea of a book about retrieving memories, because obviously the devastating loss of memory is the main initial problem with dementia. You know, people can be physically okay for years, but it’s the loss of their memories and loss of memory has always been a theme of my writing, right from my debut close to me, which was about a woman who lost a year of her memories by falling down the stairs.

Um, this has been, um, something that I just keep coming back to and I am fascinated by. And in terms of, um, research, like I think almost every family, our family has been touched by it. So I had that personal experience of it, but also did my research because you don’t ever want to present a caricature of a person living with dementia or a person who has a relative who has dementia.

You want to honor that as a individual character, because everybody’s different. Everybody’s experience is different. So for me, it was about, much more about, the daughter of person who has dementia, which is not me, but is the character in the book and how that profoundly affects her as her mother becomes less and less of the person that she was, and how that kind of robs that person bit by bit in a very cruel way of their memories.

And then I thought, well, if you were offered the opportunity as that daughter, as Tash is, if you were offered the opportunity for your mother, just to have that brief moment of lucidity again, just to look at you and see you and understand who you are again. How would that be? Would you want to do that?

You know, if it’s risky or if it’s so transient, is it worth it? So that was where I was going with kind of the memory foundation. Not only offering this destination travel, sexy, exciting week to these millionaires, but also that what they’re really trying to do and why they do that is because they’re trying to find a cure for dementia.

And I think that’s a very relatable thing for so many people these days.

Mark: Yeah. In writing, Natasha, she has like a very kind of heavy emotional, uh, start to the book because she not only has her mother, she has, a newborn, she has, trying, she wants to reestablish her career. How much of that emotional weight is kind of like rooted in you and in in your life experience?

Amanda: Yeah, I think, um, I’m, I’m a mother. My children are adults now. I’m about to become a grandmother actually for the first time in a few weeks time. Thank you. Very exciting. Um, but when I started writing the book, my, my daughter wasn’t pregnant, so it wasn’t anything to do with that. It was more to do with the idea, I think, of the guilt of Natasha being sort of sandwich between, um, losing her mother who has dementia and unexpectedly finding herself pregnant and alone. Because as you’re discovering the story, you know, the, the dad is, is not about, and she’s got this incredibly rewarding, demanding career as an investigative journalist. She travels all over the world and she hunts down stories without a thought for her safety or how she’s gonna do it.

She just kind of picks up her bag and goes, and then she can’t because she’s pregnant and because she then has a newborn and she really fights the guilt, she fights this kind of, should I be an example to my daughter and still go out there, still have my career, or should I sacrifice that? And if I do.

How long for and will I resent it? So there’s that push pull constantly for Natasha.

And I think whatever kind of story you’re writing, however speculative the elements of that story are, it’s that connection to very relatable human issues that I’m trying to get across as well. Because readers really wanna feel seen, they wanna feel that the kind of things that they struggle with or their friends or their moms or their daughters struggle with, that they can recognize that too. They can see that in Natasha. So whatever choices she makes, and I’m sure not every reader will agree with them all. She does it with, with the best of intentions and a lot of love.

Mark: When you’re building a character like her, who’s that complex, with that much going on, you’re trying to get on the page, how do you do it? Do you, did she start as someone who like mother had dementia? I would assume perhaps that’s how it started, and then as you were writing, you kind of discovered these other things, or do you Natasha and then add these things and then she comes to life on the page after.

Amanda: Yeah, I’m, I’m not a planner. I’m definitely what I would call a discovery writer.

Um, I always say that you do the work, but when you do it, there is according to your own process. So I accept that I write a lot that probably won’t end up in the book, or if it does, it will end up in a different format but I kind of write to hear the character’s voice and as soon as I can start to hear the character’s voice, then I’ve got to work out what’s the structure, what’s the point of view, you know, am I gonna have more than one main character as I do in the memory foundation?

And how am I gonna get this story across? So I think Natasha came reasonably fully formed because I knew that I wanted her to be in this, um, this sort of struggle, this generational struggle of feeling quite isolated and alone, desperately wanting to do the best by her child, desperately wanting to do the best by her, her mother.

And I felt that was. There quite early on. Um, but then her backstory developed as, as I wrote, and I, and I knew that I really wanted something hopeful for her as well, however hard the journey was. I wanted her to have a lot of inner tenacity, but also come out of it, you know, um, hopefully with some hope at the end of her story as well.

Mark: As a discovery writer do, are you thinking about the story and you have that main plot in your mind before you go? How much of this story did you have? Sort of, I, I would assume in your mind if you’re discovery writing before you started writing.

Amanda: Yeah, I, I normally, um, I normally have my main character, um, and I have kind of a beginning, middle and an idea of the end. What I didn’t have for the memory foundation, which is really weird now because now I think about it. ’cause if you come look at the cover, it is so integral. This location, I did not have that.

I didn’t know where the memory foundation was. Um, I live in the UK and I sort of thought it might just be on, in like an industrial unit somewhere in the middle of the country or something. I literally had no idea where it was gonna be. And I wrote some sections where it was just like off some kind of spur road on the outskirts of London or something on this gray concrete industrial estate.

And then I thought actually it would be so much more exciting and so much more challenging if it was in the mountains. And I started to think of this kind of James Bond que glare in the middle of the Alps. Um, and that became quite a lot of fun then. ’cause I thought, yes, I’m gonna have ravines and bridges and tracks and snow and mountains and avalanches and it’s gonna be just so much fun to write.

Yeah.

Mark: How was the research for that? Because the weather in this book, the, the location and the danger, it, it does a lot of heavy lifting in the book because it’s sets up a lot of things that go on.

Amanda: Um,

Mark: location and then put the, the, the building there and the suspension bridge at that location. I looked up Mount, Mount Dunk. I think dunker was the mountain that it was called in the book. I couldn’t find real mount dunker, so I’m assuming

Amanda: no, it’s made up. It’s all, all of it is entirely made up. It’s completely made up out of my head. All of it. Yeah. I have been to the Alps. I mean, I live in the uk. I’ve been to, you know, various French Alps and Austrian Alps in my time, so I guess it’s an amalgamation of some of those trips and some of the things that I’ve seen, but it is completely invented the whole thing.

Yeah.

Mark: Okay. Do you ever draw a map, uh, as you’re creating the story? Do you have an idea of like what it looks like? Do you draw your note? Okay.

Amanda: No, if you knew me, mark, you would know. I would not draw a map.

Mark: Okay.

Amanda: I am not a map person. I love a map like in the front of a book. Um, but no, no, there’s no map. Only in my head. And, and the weird thing is that it just feels so real now that I can see the drive. See the mountain, I can totally see the walk into the forest and the ravine and the bridge and the laboratory. I can see all of it. Totally see it. So when my, um, lovely publishes Crooked Lane sent me a couple of different options for the cover, which I absolutely love.

Um, one of, one of them I said, no, it doesn’t look like that. And then you think, oh, I just made it up. Whatcha you talking about?

Mark: Yeah.

Amanda: But it does look like the one that’s on the cover. Yeah. In my head.

Mark: Oh, that’s awesome. How many, how many versions do you get before you, you kind of get to pick I’m look, taking a closer look at it now. How many versions do you get to go through to,

to

Amanda: They, sent me a couple. Yeah, they sent me a couple. So, um, the, the kind of main idea of the cover and, and all of this was exactly the same. The only thing that, um, was a variable was the building. So I think there were two different, two different buildings and I picked the one that matched the real one in my head, so that that’s how I did it.

Yeah.

Mark: the cover, that’s why I ask. Uh,

Amanda: Yeah. It’s a great cover. It is a really lovely cover and I haven’t always loved my covers, um, but I absolutely adore this one. Yeah.

Mark: so when people finish this book and they, and they put it down, are you hoping are some of the takeaways perhaps beyond just an entertaining getaway? What other takeaways might there be for a reader when they put it down? What are you hoping they’re gonna feel?

Amanda: I hope that they’re going to understand the struggle of the two women in the story. So there’s also, aside from Natasha, there’s also, uh, Lydia, who is Dr. Wade Hunter’s devoted wife. And, um, Wade and Lydia have set up the memory foundation and done lots of years of work together. And the reason that they bring people in these wealthy millionaires for, you know, this frippery of this destination travel is because their ultimate aim is to find a cure for dementia and be able to help people with memory loss.

So. Whatever might go down during the story. And there’s a lot, um, I hope that it makes them think about the idea of there being some hope. You know, that tech is at times a bit scary. We worry about ai, authors worry about ai, but at the same time there’s an awful lot of positive things that can come out of it.

So I hope they think about some of that that’s in the book. And I also hope they think about how people try to, um, get on with their lives in, in terms of a struggle against, with Tash, you know, what we’ve talked about. But also Lydia, she’s got her own traumas in her past and, you know, she really, she’s a real fighter as well, and she, um, I, I like both the women in my story and I do think women, particularly kind of women who are a little bit more mature, like Lydia is a little bit more mature, just a little bit um, I think that. It’s really nice to see them represented and be strong women, you know, not be victims necessarily, but be very, um, strong in the choices that they make and the lives that they, they lead. So, um, yeah, as I say, I, I, I want to give hope to my characters at the end, and I want people to feel that they’ve been on a journey with them, but ultimately there is a hopeful ending for them as well.

Mark: Yeah. Very nice. Was there ever a time that Wade, our scientist, was a point of view that you wanted to show the reader? I, I mean, you, you didn’t in

Amanda: Oh,

Mark: but was there ever a time where you wanted to

Amanda: interesting.

Mark: through

Amanda: No, he wasn’t actually. Um, I mean, I, I have a, a fondness for Wade. He’s a complex character, but you know, he doesn’t always get it right, but he’s a trier. Um, uh, yeah. I’m fascinated by Wade and I’m really interested in his difference. He’s so different to me. He’s very singular in his story.

He’s incredibly focused. He’s very clever. He achieves incredible things, huge developments. But I think like anybody who is very, very focused on one thing, he can sometimes not see the bigger picture, and he can come across quite emotionally closed off. So I. He loves his, his wife Lydia. He adores her beyond anything.

And at the same time, he exists in this kind of bubble of singularity, which I think anybody who is of genius level as Wade is, um, and trying to do something so pioneering is going to have that kind of, um, element of their personality that appears to be quite almost cold and focused and on one thing. So I, I wasn’t ever gonna have him.

I, what I was gonna have was some of the guests points of view. So we’ve got these millionaires who arrive, um, and I was going to have, um, maybe the Bentley’s point of view. There’s a really rich couple. She’s kind of younger than him and I was toying with the idea of having them, but in the end, I just wanted it to be the two women, Lydia and Tash.

Mark: And did you, so building on that, did you ever think of about showing one of the flights and how intense a flight could be?

Amanda: yes I did. Um, one of my plans originally was to have for each of the guests, so there’s four of them, um, was to show their flights. And I did actually write most of them, I think. And it was interesting and I think it would’ve been fine, but it worked better not to have those in there and kind of work with the imagination of the reader as well to see where that would take them.

Because I want people to think about where they would go if they went back and what the effects of that might be. So that’s something I was really playing with in terms of the reader bringing their imagination to that as well.

Mark: And when you’re writing Lydia, how did you approach her to be, if you see her as a strong character, yet devoted wife, sort of complicit what is happening there,

Amanda: Yeah.

Mark: Her husband, but at the same time as things going wrong.

Amanda: mm

Mark: you know who she is as a person to either put a stop to it or, or whatever.

Amanda: mm. Yeah, I, I think, um, I really wanted that in Lydia that she would. Absolutely be in love with her husband, and in many ways it’s a really great marriage, like they do adore one another, but at the same time, there’s a compromise in that and there’s a lot of compromises as the book goes on, and I think that’s quite realistic of a relationship where one person is perhaps subjugating their talents, their genius, their brilliance because the other person is so bright, and is so focused and is a natural leader.

I don’t think that’s a judgment necessarily on Lydia. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being that kind of woman. And I think it’s quite interesting as I’m 60 now, my daughter’s 30, 32, those different generational views of what we expect women to do and how they should behave. And I don’t think you necessarily have to always conform to those to be happy to, to be content.

So I guess I’m pushing that side of things as well for, well, what’s wrong with being the wife? What’s wrong with what the choices Lydia has made? And there are some things wrong with it, absolutely. But you know, a long-term relationship like that is about compromise. So I guess that’s what I’m exploring as well. But of course, as you say, things do go a bit wrong. They go a bit awry.

Mark: What was the hardest part of this book to write for you? emotionally or just from a, a craft perspective?

Amanda: Um, I think this is probably my most action packed book, particularly towards the end. I really wanted to write, I suppose going back to the James Bond que idea of this mountain top, something’s gonna have to happen. You know, I’m talking about avalanche is a lot. I’m talking about a dodgy bridge across the ravine, you know,

so, um.

Yeah, those took in terms of craft, quite a lot of thinking about to write them in a, in a, I hope, a really exciting way. And my editor Marcia Mark, Linda Crooked Lane, was also brilliant in terms of like, pull back a little bit here, a bit more there because you get to the point where you’ve written something and you know it’s so, well, you can no longer see it that clearly.

So, um, her notes came after many drafts, but they were really, really helpful because by that point she could see the whole thing and she could see at what point we needed to reveal things and at what point certain points of action needed to be ramped up or, or just have a quiet moment. So that perspective was great, but I enjoyed doing it because that was one of the challenges of doing something new.

Mark: Yeah. And the acknowledgements, you thank your agent, one of the first things you do and you say, and I’m gonna quote here from the book, her enthusiasm and commitment have restored my faith in so many things, not least myself.

Amanda: Mm,

Mark: quote. you speak to that a little bit? ’cause it feels, it feels like there’s a, uh, you know, there might be a story there or some.

Amanda: That’s very insightful. Lucky Mark. Um, yeah, I had a really tough time actually. Um, both kind of personally and professionally. Publishing’s quite a tough game. Um, it’s quite hard to be around for a long time and, um, I’d taken a reasonably brave decision in stepping away from a potential deal for more psychological suspense.

Books to try and do this, which was very much supported. But a few things happened and I ended up having to change agents. And that happened at the point that the book was supposed to be going out on submission and it all just kind of crashed down. And then my wonderful new agent, she was representing somebody I knew.

I contacted her and explained my situation and she said, send it over. And within I think three days, she had read it, marked it up, returned it to me, and we didn’t even know that we were gonna definitely be working together at that point. Said, I adore this, here are my notes, shall we have a chat? I mean, it was just like, wow, how much did I need that after I had been pretty let down by someone?

So. She has just been unbelievable and as I say, restored my faith in publishing in people and myself because I was kind of at the point where it’s like, okay, this just isn’t gonna happen because it’s all just going wrong. And it also came at a point where my mother had passed away. Um, I finished the book the day before her funeral, so it was all wrapped up in that as well. So it was a really tough time.

Mark: Wow.

Amanda: um, yeah, that was, that was what was behind that, that comment, I think. Yeah.

Mark: Wow. That’s a great story. I’m glad, I’m glad it worked out and you found the right agent for you. That’s

Amanda: Oh,

Mark: that that, that you were able to do that.

Amanda: yeah. Yeah. She’s been fantastic. I mean, your agent is so important in. Somebody in your corner, somebody you can talk to, somebody you can be honest with. Um, it’s a very, very important relationship, um, to an author. So I’m super lucky that I have Joanna. She’s just wonderful. Yeah.

Mark: Do your books normally go, like in your writing process, do they go from, you finish the first draft to your agent? Is that how you typically do your book and your agent gets back to you with how they feel about it?

Amanda: Um, well this one had, had been developed with a different agent and had gone through multiple drafts, so I’ve sort of told you what happened there. So now Joanna and I are working on my next book and, um, again, just to kind of like speak to her incredible generosity. I said, I’ve got a hundred pages of my next book.

And she said, send them over. And again, she read them really quickly, came back, said. I love this. Keep going. Which is exactly what I wanted to hear. Um, I don’t normally work like that. I normally would never share. I just want, how, how about you? Do you share stuff when it’s still kind of form forming?

Mark: No draft. Not even the first draft, the second draft. I, I need to go through the whole thing again

Amanda: yeah,

Mark: set up anything that I did and yeah, definitely

Amanda: yeah.

Mark: yeah.

Amanda: Yeah. I think that’s a very sound approach. Um, the only reason I did it with the next one is it’s even more out there. And I just wanted to make sure that more kind of as a concept than anything else, that she was happy with it. But she was incredibly generous and she really liked it. So that was great ’cause it’s like, brilliant, I’m gonna keep going. And that was quite a few months ago because as you know, it takes ages, doesn’t it, to, to kind of, um, finish your first draft. And now I’m going through a second draft and I will not share, um, until that second draft is done. Um, but yeah, it was just nice to get that endorsement at that stage. Like yeah, just, I I love this. Write this. Keep going.

Mark: Mean a, yeah, see that there’s both The fear for me, there’s like both the fear of, of sending it and then someone like being like, ah, and then like the whole story dies for you, even though it could have been really good and that they read the one section that

Amanda: yeah, exactly. Yeah. It’s really hard to judge. But, um, I suppose I just like trusted her to the to, to be honest, but also to be, to be very kind. She’s a really kind person, so I was able to do that with her. Um, and she also shared it with somebody else at the agency who also said how much they love it. So fingers crossed, you know what publishing’s like, there’s no, there’s no guarantees, but we’ll see. We all like it at the moment.

Mark: Great. Is that another speculative thriller that we can look forward to? Okay.

Amanda: oh it is. Yeah.

Mark: So as we wrap up a bit,

Amanda: Um,

Mark: someone who just published their first or second book?

Amanda: what advice would I give? Um, I would first of all say congratulate yourself because it is an incredible achievement, first and foremost. So I would say just give yourself a pat on the back and also look back down the road because it’s so easy. Um, I think when you are an author to always be thinking of the next thing.

I need to do this. I need to do another book. I need to get another deal. I need to, I need to get a best seller. I need to get the TVs. All of these things, you know, whatever you’ve had you want again, or you want more, you want better, or you wanna keep going and it’s it. Really important to look back. I’m not saying I’m good at this myself, but I would definitely give that advice to say, look how far you’ve come.

Look, what you’ve achieved is amazing what you’ve done. So many people want to write a book and don’t write the book in the first place.

A lot of people write a book and it doesn’t get published, or they don’t do the work to get those drafts into shape, or they don’t take the notes or whatever it is.

You’ve done all of that and it’s been published and people have read it. It’s just phenomenal. And then I would say, keep going because you know if it’s worth it to you personally and you enjoy the writing, because that’s the main thing that you need to do is enjoy the writing. That’s all we have control over.

Then keep going and and do more because you are validated. You are. You are a great writer. You’ve been published.

Mark: Yeah, I love that advice. Congratulate yourself. Do you find yourself doing that? Do you find yourself stopping? I have had a hard time, like you said, because it gets so busy. Like, I’ve done the book, okay, now it’s gotta go to the editor. Now it comes back to me. Now

it’s gotta go here. Now I gotta prepare marketing. And now

Amanda: mm

Yeah.

Mark: That I forget to look back and see it as an accomplishment. I love,

Amanda: yeah.

Mark: yourself. Do you find

Amanda: Yeah.

Mark: Do you do that for yourself?

Amanda: No, but I’m really fortunate because I work as a coach at the novelty. I dunno if you’ve come across the novelty at all. Um, it’s a writing school, um, and I constantly get that from people that I coach who are like, you are amazing. You’ve been published, blah, blah. So I’m really fortunate that I get that feedback from people who look at what I’ve achieved and remind me of that, which is really lucky because I’m terrible at doing that.

I am so bad. I’m so dramatic. I’m so, like, I’m never gonna have another book published, and if I am, everyone will hate it, and all of those things. So I am terrible at taking my own advice on that.

Mark: Yeah. I guess, I guess that’s the, that’s the thing. Readers, hearing readers that love our books, and that’s a, a very powerful thing. Yeah.

Amanda: Very, yeah. So grateful to people who review and read and share, you know, bloggers and book reviewers who share on Instagram. I always thank them and I always, you know, if I find it, I will always share it because, um, it makes such a difference and it’s so appreciated.

Mark: Yeah,

I don’t know if readers know. I certainly do now, but I don’t know. When I was reading before that I knew how, I didn’t really understand how powerful that is, and I think some people who are friends that have become like readers of mine, it’s the same where they didn’t realize how powerful it was

Amanda: Yeah.

Mark: And to say something nice. Just to be like, I love this book. That means the world. Even if

Amanda: Oh yeah.

Mark: second comment

Amanda: Yeah.

Mark: it’s like it’s, I could, I could be set for the day with energy on something so

Amanda: Oh yeah, yeah, exactly that. Yeah. And I do read my reviews. I dunno about you. Good, bad, ugly. I read them all. Um, I had, I had, I had one reviewer who um, absolutely adored their pink hole punch and absolutely hated my book. So the pink hole punch got five stars and I got one.

Mark: Wow.

Amanda: So there we go.

Mark: I guess that’s another part of it is that. We know that not everyone’s gonna love our books for whatever reason, and not to take it personally, and which might be another piece of advice for writers that we

Amanda: Yeah.

Mark: It personally because someone may just not connect with the characters that we write. And that’s just

Amanda: Yeah.

Mark: life experiences, were not anywhere near these characters or whatever it might be.

Amanda: absolutely. I mean, you know, you might have someone who recommends a book to you and for you, it just doesn’t work. And it doesn’t mean that there’s a problem with the book. It’s because you’ve come at it at the wrong moment, or it’s just kind of not what you need to, to be reading right now. It’s just not connecting with you for some reason.

It’s often, I think, more to do with us and the timing. You know, we might pick up a book years later and, oh gosh, why did I not read this? I love it now. Um, it is hard, I think, not to take it personally and it’s of course it’s much nicer to get the lovely reviews than the ones that, oh no, this is a bit more.

But, um, yeah, I think definitely, um, you know, you’ve published, um. Multiple times as well. I think, you know, it get, it gets, does get easier. I think you develop a bit of a, a muscle that kind of like shakes it off and you’re like, okay, move along. Somebody didn’t like Pride and Prejudice, somebody didn’t like Cloud Atlas, somebody didn’t like all of these amazing books.

That’s fine.

Mark: Yeah, question from Jon Lindstrom, who was the last guest on the show,

Amanda: Oh,

amazing.

Mark: Payback.

Amanda: Fantastic.

Mark: What made you want to spend all this time with this group of people and characters?

Amanda: Oh, that’s such a good question. Thank you. Well, they’re quite a disparate group of characters. Um, they’re, I hope that people like them, but they may not, they may not like them. Um, I love. One character in particular that I spent time with, which was Zoe, because Zoe is, she’s kind of the, the freebie on the destination travel to the alp.

She’s got a a, a place, a scholarship. So she’s gone along for free and she wears like fluffy jumpers with penguins on and cowboy boots. And she says exactly whatever is in her head, she has no filter. And I loved writing her because you know, in life you can’t be like that. You have to be nice, you have to be a good person.

And Zoe, she just doesn’t give a down. She just says whatever she wants to say. So I loved writing her. She was a really good fan and I kind of liked that. Um, my characters came from lots of different places. So there’s a New Yorker, um, and I actually adore New York, so I really liked writing him. And I sort of imagined him in New York what kind of person he would be.

Um, yeah, so it was good fun to spend time with them. Yeah.

Mark: Awesome. Where can listeners find your book?

Amanda: Um, so the audio is currently, I think, being done. Um, so they, um, they sent me the person who’s doing it and she’s amazing. And it will be, I believe, available at all good audio outlets. So that will be coming along, I think at the same time as the publication of the hardback and the paperback and the ebook,

Mark: And if people wanna hear more about you or find more about you, social media follow you, where can they find you?

Amanda: so they can find me on Instagram. Um, Amanda Reynolds. Amanda Reynolds. JI forget, I’m rubbish at social media, but I am there. I am on Instagram. I am also occasionally on X, although that’s not what it was. Um, and I am on Facebook, so if you look up Amanda Reynolds or you look up Amanda West, you should be able to find me on social media.

And what I am good at doing is interacting with people. So if you find me, I will always kind of respond ’cause I love that.

Mark: Oh, that’s awesome. Thank you so much. This is, that’s the end of our regular show, so thank you so much for,

Amanda: Thank you, mark.

Mark: here. And we’re gonna jump into the spoiler section. So for those who do not want the book spoiled, go out, get the book, read the book, and then come back and listen to the end.

’cause we are headed for spoilers. So you have been warned. So when you wrote the dual point of view structure, was the reveal always gonna be the destination or did it emerge through during the writing process?

Amanda: Um, that is a great question and I’m trying to cast my mind back to where it came because as I said, I am a discovery writer, so I know there wouldn’t have been a great plan in place because that is just not the way I do things. I’m a bit kind of like, I’ve got my, um, you know, my pad next to me and I’ll scribble a few things and that will be the extent of it.

And the rest of it is in the muddle of my brain, which is why I’m such a terrible insomnia. ’cause I’m trying to hold so much information in my head. I think that I. Knew that there was gonna be a twist. I love a twist, you know, I’m old school on that. There will always be some kind of a twist. There will be a twist in the middle, and there will always be another one at the end in my books, pretty much.

Um, and it sort of came to me partway through that. Um, and this is a massive spoilers, so read the book first.

It, it came to me that what if they are the same person? And I loved that idea. So I then started to bring that, um, together through the two points of view. And interestingly, although I had already written both women kind of as separate entities, I was okay with that because I knew that tash was a different person than Lydia was because Lydia had been so changed by the trauma that she went through. So what Wade did to her, what the mountain did to her, what the accident that she went through did to her, and the fact that she was robbed of all of her memories prior to going to the mountain, and even the reason why she went to the mountain and the trauma that she believes happened to her on the mountain, all of those things absolutely changed her into a different person and she would never be the same.

Even when we get to the point where we understand that Lydia is Tash and Tash is Lydia, and then the point of view changes to be Tash when the truth comes out and only Tash, there is still the element of Tash being the Lydia version now of Tash. So if that makes sense, it kind of grew organically from that.

Mark: Okay. So was the, was the ending always the plan ending?

Amanda: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. It wasn’t a plan. No, I, I did know, first of all, no baby or dog or any other animal will ever be harmed in any of my books, so that is another big spoiler. But that is always true. You can read my books with impunity knowing that that will not ever happen. So I wanted to implant, kind of threatened worry, but ultimately things were gonna be okay things.

Well, they’re not all okay. There’s quite a lot. That’s not okay, but there’s, there’s a lot for, for Lydia um slash Tash that will come out okay. In the end when the truth comes out. Although obviously she’s devastated by the betrayal.

Mark: So I just wanna come back to Wade for a second because at the end of the book we realize he’s more of a mad scientist who did very bad, manipulative things to a lot of people.

Amanda: Yes.

Mark: It like, what was it like writing him, or how did you build him in order to, I would imagine you’re almost have like an icky feeling where you’re writing these scenes he’s almost like, you don’t hate him ’cause he hasn’t really done anything wrong until we know the truth. So like throughout the book, we’re almost. I mean, I don’t know if I’d say I liked him, but I was just like, okay, I get it.

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: Just a passionate person trying to do this thing.

Amanda: mm

Mark: to write, knowing that he was actually like a real bastard in the end?

Amanda: It’s a complete psycho that, uh, yeah. Um, no, I loved it. I loved it. I, I sort of had in my head, have you watched Maniac with Justin Thru?

Mark: No.

Amanda: Okay. It’s, it’s quite old now, but, um, maniac has got Jonah Hill and Emma Stone and Justin Thru. And Justin Thru is Wade to me. That’s who Wade is. Um, and he has the singularity of purpose that I think makes its own logic in his head.

So when he comes to the point of exposure at the end and he’s justifying himself, he totally believes still in everything that he’s done and why he’s done it. He still thinks that the end justifies the means, which it clearly does not. But for him, that’s fine. You know, the greater good, that’s how he sees it.

So I think when you unlock the logic that drives the character, the motivation for that, you can absolutely write ’em on point because then it’s like, well that just makes sense, total sense to him. He did that because ultimately, he thinks it’s the right thing to do. He doesn’t have any compunction about it at all.

Mark: Yeah. That’s, I guess that’s kind of the scariest kind of villain that, that you can write one who just completely believes in what

Amanda: yeah,

Totally. Yeah.

Yeah,

Mark: believes in it, and it’s just like all Okay. No.

Amanda: yeah.

Mark: in that sense. Yeah.

Amanda: Absolutely. Yeah.

Mark: Do you have any thoughts, because you kind of wrote that vir virtual reality and you have, like you mentioned earlier, the push and pull. Do you have thoughts the push and pull of, of good versus bad in the virtual AI environment? Do you have any thoughts like virtual reality and, mental illness and,

Amanda: Um.

Mark: and because we see at the end how it was pretty much used bad with the potential for good. I’m just curious if you were touching on something there.

Amanda: A little bit. I think we’ve all, we all have, well, I don’t wanna speak for everybody, but I, and a lot of people I know have a certain amount of fear about what’s coming. I always thought that my, the big thing in my generation would be the internet. I always thought, well, we weren’t best. That, you know, that’s such a massive change in our lives.

You know, when I was my kid’s age, um, I didn’t have a mobile phone. And now everybody has a mobile phone. And I thought that’s gonna be the big thing in our lifetime, you know, that and maybe we won’t have to do ironing anymore. That was what I thought. And, um, that’s my predictions. And um, and of course then AI comes along and AI is a construct.

It’s not a real thing. It’s always been around. It’s just that it’s grown and we’ve started calling it ai, but computer, um, kind of sentient, um, learning is, is, has always been around for probably five, six decades now. It’s just that it’s so good now that it’s starting to impact everything. So I think I want to, um, just touch on that.

I don’t think as an author we should ever, um, answer the questions. We should just open up the debate. So I want to be able to think about.

Mark: Oh

Amanda: It’s nuanced. There’s, there’s, there’s good that’s gonna come out of this. We don’t have to be completely negative about it. And also there’s obviously potential as in any kind of development, um, for it to be used for evil as well.

So it’s, it’s all about, um, going into things with our eyes open and being careful, but at the same time embracing the things that it will massively help. And one of those health, which is what I talk about in the book, you know, the opportunities for, um, massive leaps in healthcare are gonna be there as well. So there’s, there’s both sides of that.

Mark: yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah. My last question, what’s one question you would like me to ask the next author Who comes on the show? And my next guest is Ava Roberts, who wrote The Summer House Murder. It’s about three sisters on vacation at their family’s lake home, which turns into a nightmare when a body’s discovered in the lake forcing their buried secrets in to the surface.

Amanda: Oh, that sounds really good. That sounds very up. Mystery. Okay, so I would like to ask Ava, does she have sisters and why did she decide to write a book about sisters? What was it that fascinated her about sisters? And I ask this as an only child because I often invent siblings because I don’t have any. So I’m fascinated by that too.

So, yeah.

Mark: question. I love it. I can’t wait to hear her answer. Thank you. So if you don’t have, if you have a few more minutes to stick around for the after show rapid fire questions, I would really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. This has been, this has been amazing.

Thank you

Amanda: Thank you. Thanks, mark.

Mark: Amanda Reynolds. Everyone writing under Amanda West, the Memory Foundation. Go out and read it if you haven’t already, which you should have if you’re at this point in the podcast. ’cause it’s been spoiled. Thank you for listening and watching. Have a wonderful day.

Amanda: Thank you.